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Posted By patrick carr
Hi All,
My local CIU,clubs heating system has broken down.
In order to facilitate the clients it has endeavoured to introduce Butane gas heaters (blue bottles) which i have no problems with,however. Today, they have introduced a Industrial space heater with a propane bottle which is situated within the premises (Indoors)
This is the large (Orange)bottle.
Today there has been several attempts by Bar staff, to ignite this heater, to no avail, whence the premises have been saturated with pressurised unlit gas.
I took a stance and quoted that a Space heater should be allowed,However. I stated it was against the law to have a Large propane bottle within enclosed areas.
On approaching the Club steward on this concern of mine,and fellow inhabitants of the premise, i was informed that the Environmental Health Authority had given the 'All clear' for this to be carried out. (I think not).
I informed the Club i would get back to them with substantial professional feedback, So folks please help.
Regards
Paddy (scaffolder)
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Posted By D H
Hi Paddy - cannot guide you specifically but check this link
http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/faqlandlord.htm
Have a look at the part where gas appliances need to be inspected - mentiones air sensors etc, and the need for test certificates.
Hope this helps till someone can answer you specifically.
Best regarsd
Dave
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Posted By D H
Forgot the spell check agaain!! Grrr
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Posted By MP Grayson
I would have serious doubts about:
1. Carbon monoxide poisoning if this heater is used inside.
2. Its a serious fire hazard.
3. If its a club and someone has too much to drink are they going to get their fingers burnt.
4. Man-made clothing fibres.
If its the type of heater that I am thinking about. I had an idiot of a Facilities Manger at my last place that tried to do the same. In a place where children were running about.
Not good.
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Posted By patrick carr
Dave,
Thanks for the quick response, i have now downloaded that information to exhibit at my 'Conduct case ' on Monday night' .
P.S. How much does it cost for 4 beers at a supermarket? i could be barred. Lol.
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Posted By Suffolkman
Patrick ventilation requirements depend on type of heater ... assuming its a direct fired type then....
All direct fired heaters require permanent ventilation to the outside atmosphere - the hire company should be able to advise on quantatity required according to the output of the heater
These heaters are also not designed to be used whare combustables are present, really designed for use om building sites etc...
Propane cylinders must be used and stored in accordance with the highly flammable liquids and liquefied petroleum gases regulation 1972.
As other have pointed out you also have CO risks,fire risks, gas leakage risks, hot surfaces etc.... though if operating correctly they will have pretty complete combustion and are fitted with a overheat device....
Hope this helps... talk to the hire co
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Posted By Alan Haynes
Paddy
you "stated it was against the law to have a Large propane bottle within enclosed areas."
If you can quote what law it is - no problem.
Otherwise - check with Environmental Health Authority, to see whether they "had given the 'All clear' for this to be carried out"
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Posted By patrick carr
alan
I had stated it was 'Against the law',however. I may have overstepped the mark on that, as after further research i have found only advice of it being ACOP,however. On all sites i have worked on (31 years) in construction,Propane cylinders have never been allowed indoors, and 12 years as a Chef within the TA,we always had to have LPG situated outside a enclosed environment.
It would be good to know of any Firefighters views in this Post.
Paddy
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Posted By patrick carr
Dave
Cheers for that info,i still think however the practice adopted is a recipe for disaster.
I must enhance by saying i have the full backing of the 'Clubs' Patrons, in bringing this 'Gassing' of the clientele, and jovial approach to what i class a blatant case of Incompetence and lack of understanding of the real reason of H&S, and the powers that could be enforced on such a cavalier attitude. To not only the clients-who can leave the establishment at will,but their Employees who have to suffer the effects of their incompetence i will endeavour to try and come to a arrangement whereas a consultation and notification scheme should be adopted. (thinks all committee members should be voted competent by the members)Sorry drifting.
Paddy
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Posted By D H
Get the fire risk assessment out - it will need reviewing.
Dave
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Suffolkman
The HFL Regs 1972 have been revoked by DSEAR.
Paul
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Posted By patrick carr
Paul
Thank you for that link leading to DSEAR, now i feel confident,that my initial concerns were not OTT, and influenced with a Pint of Beer or 2. I have now gathered a lot of information for me to present to my unlearned 'Club Committee'.
Thanks to all who contributed, especially with it being a weekend.
Next weekend my H&S CV is up for Ratification for TECH IOSH status, Fingers and toes crossed.
Thanks again all
Regards
Paddy
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Posted By Suffolkman
Paul
Thanks for the pointer on HFL to DSEAR
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Posted By garyh
This is one of these issues where, as a safety advisor, it is not enough to say "you can't do that". You have to advise what they can do.........
I would suggest that you talk to someone who is a professional in this area. Hire companies who provide this equipment must face these issues daily - I would start there.
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Posted By Andy Petrie
If it is segregated from people so that they are not exposed to the direct heat and staff are trained how to light the thing and to turn it off then there's no reason why this shouldn't be used as a temporary measure until you get the heating back on.
When they are trying to light it, the room is not being saturated with pressurised gas, it's simply the odureant that you can smell, you're not going to get to the explosive limits this way.
In terms of CO production, if this is the sort of burner I think then the flame is well mixed with air and there should be no significant CO production and the natural ventilation in the club is probably adequate.
There are no restrictions in using propane bottles indoors.
If in any doubt speak to the experts at the hire company.
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Posted By garyh
Don't want to be pedantic but when you smell gas such as Propane, Butane or Natural Gas you actually smell the stenching agent (usually ethyl mercaptan or similar) which is legally required to be added. It is however put there for the purpose of alerting you! Always take smelling gas seriously. If you don't light any gas quickly you can have an explosion.
When I light my gas hob at home, if I start the gas but don't press the igniter for a second it goes "whoof". Imagine this on a much bigger scale..........
So if you get a strong smell of gas, stop trying to light it and turn off the gas, open the doors and windows etc and stop ignition sources. You should be able to light gas without smelling it.
Incidentally I have a static caravan with large LPG cylinders, and I NEVER take a chance. I also worked on a cracker plant (where LPG is a by product). For goodness sake take it seriously.
Also note the regs on LPG ie Highly Flammable Liquids and Liquefied Petroleum Gases Regulations 1972. The regs are there for good reason.
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Gary
As I said above, the HFL Regs 1972 have been revoked by DSEAR.
Paul
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Posted By garyh
You are right about repealing the LPG regs however someone needs to tell HSE......... !http://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/sragtech/docspubguid.htm
This does not change my advice.........!
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Posted By Andy Petrie
What on earth has happened to sensible risk management??
This is nothing new so assess the risks and impliment suitable controls.
I can't believe the reaction from most people on this thread who are basically saying danger = ban it.
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Posted By garyh
Some of us are saying Danger = manage it properly!
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Posted By Andy Petrie
gary, you were the exception
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Posted By jom
Propane must be taken seriously. The US has many propane incidents. Not hard to find info on the Net.
It seems to have tremendous explosive power. Even if it doesn't explode, flash fires have caused terrible injuries.
Incidents have shown that the odourant is not always an effective warning.
Nobody here knows the volume of the club room, where the bottle is located with reference to patrons and exits. What we do know is staff could not light it and gas escaped. Not safe, is it? Want a staff member to suffer a flash fire? Staff have a natural right to know the hazards.
John.
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