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Posted By Kevin Douglas
I'm looking for a second opinion from fellow health and safety professionals on how far we need to go to confirm contractor competency.
We have a situation right now where we have a Managing Director of a contractor who has attempted to satisfy our competency check by sending us a letter stating his employees are competent because of their vast number of years experience and the fact they have worked without incident or mishap. He does state they have been trained in driving FLT's and have safety passports however they look to be unwilling to send us any recognised training certificates either because they don't have any or can't be bothered! These guys will be here to build a large furnace where there will be work at heights, significant slinging operations, gas installation, electrical installation etc! This is also a CDM project.
We are pushing for proof of competency in particular training certificates to prove they are competent to operate OH cranes, sling loads, build mobile tower scaffolds, work at height, install and commission gas pipework etc.
Please tell me if we are going too far. In my opinion, playing 'devils advocate' here, if anything were to go wrong we could be held responsible, along with the contractor, for not ensuring the contractor employees were competent. They only way we can do this is by obtaining recognised training certificates in all the disciples relevant. We should not rely on a letter stating the men are competent.
This could have a massive impact on this project therefore any advice on the matter is appreciated.
Kevin.
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Posted By Alan Haynes
You are the Client - you tell T^enderers what information you want from them [I assume that you haven't let the contract yet {I hope}].
It the Contractor cannot/will not give you the required information - don't use them.
As a responsible client, you need to see the relevant information
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Posted By Alan Haynes
Sorry = supposed to be "Tenderers" - Why can't we have an 'edit' facility?
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Posted By Paul
In my opinion you are not going to far. We conduct loads of competency reviews for principal contractors on behalf of our client and have come across the issues have raised just recently. Too give you an example I requested proof of H&S training for CDM07 to be provided including certs etc. The P/C had not provided any formal training however stated that they are competent. This did not satisfy the criteria therefore the P/C booked an CDM07 training course for the workers to be conducted before works start on site. This is the type of response I would expect from a decent P/C.
In addition the competency reviews are nothing new so they should be well aware of the type of documents they are likely to be asked for to prove competence.
Please also remember that the works you have described sound high risk therefore the level of competency must reflect the type of works carried out.
Regards
Paul
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Posted By Kevin Douglas
Thank guys. Just needed a little bit of a comfort feel before I make my ruling on this one.
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
If you do ever crack the contractor competency issue write the book and retire on the profits. It is the one area we all struggle with. The LPC criteria for fitting sprinklers requires proof of competence, after all it is a life safety system. Perversely there is no such thing as a sprinkler fitter qualification. My ten year ld daughter can fit plastic sprinkler pipes.
I was on a site a few years ago and the young FLT driver had a full license, telehandler too. He smashed everything in his sight and we eventually had to throw him off the project. The older FLT driver had no formal training and was a delight to work with, making regulkar checks on his vehicle and ensuring all loads were fit for purpose.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Kevin,
CDM 07, via Regulation and ACoP Appendices, makes explicit requirement that ALL duty holders check the competency of their appointments.
You are not, by any means, going too far.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Unless you are talking about a very small outfit I personally will go out on a limb and state that competence of an organisation, or persons, cannot be ascertained without a functioning system to manage competence.
For instance we have our CPD system that goes part the way to prove competence but it does need to be supported via your own CV and other matters as specific to your own field of work/ level of responsibility.
Bob
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Further to my eminent colleague, I would also expect any competent contractor (other than a small outfit) to be able to meet the Core criteria for demonstrating competence which can be found in Appendix 4 of the ACOP for the CDM Regulations.
If they cannot provide the necessary evidence which meets this, is it worth exposing your employer's PI or third party insurance and taking on this risk, responsibility and supervision required?
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Posted By stephen d clarke
Hi,
If checking a contractor's competency you could look for the following: ISO/EN/BS standards followed, info from other clients, finance info, membership of professional bodies, statutory notices/prosecutions, accident/incident records, safety awards, safety training, H&S management, H&S policy/organisation/arrangements, risk assessments/method statements.
Steve
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Posted By Lwood
Except no substitutes, insist on formal training and hard evidence, you will not go far wrong by doing so.
The company I recently worked for had been prosecuted by the HSE for failing to ‘control its contractors’ (before I arrived but it took 3 years to get to court) where they had asked for only competent people to be used and the company being used to do the building work allowed a staff member to use an FLT without being trained. As you can guess there was an accident and the HSE prosecuted our company (£15,700), the contractors immediately went insolvent as soon as the HSE became involved and didn’t get prosecuted.
The HSE tack was that we as the larger company had the push to insist how things should be done (I am in the side of the HSE on this). We didn’t push enough and basically let them get on with it!
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Lwood
Exactly what I would expect for an employing contractor. You must manage competence on site and not merely ask the question at the start of the work. Effectively the HSE are saying that there waas no system to manage competence.
Bob
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Posted By Ciaran McAleenan
Hello Kevin
You could ask one question;
Describe how your organisation meets the requirements of the standards laid down in CDM 2007?
The evidence requirement you would look for would be how they achieve the standard in column 2 of Appendix 4 against each of the 14 core criteria.
Look for descriptions of how it is achieved and ask for the documentary evidence to back it up.
Best wishes
Ciaran
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