Posted By naomi Hi Shaun The only time I would use a fire extinguisher is to assisst me or others in getting out of the building. Naomi

Posted By stephen d clarke Hi, But must add that on the few occasions when I've had to make that decision I always chose to put the fire out with an extinguisher - one time in particular because it was my fault, luckly no lasting consequences except for the lab decor and a destroyed oven. Steve

Posted By Nick Lodge The advice I have always had is that any fire larger than a normal waste bin that sits under desks then it should be left to the professionals. If it is smaller and the individual has been trained to use a fire extinguisher they they can have a go (if they feel happy to do so) at putting the fire out. The big problem is that if the fire isn't put out it tends to then grow quickly.

Posted By MickN Fire extinguishers are there to put out fires (should they occur), there's nothing wrong in using them. I suspect many more people have perished because they weren't there as opposed to the reverse situation. Fires are a killer. As trainers and safety pros we advocate leaving the premises immediately upon discovering a fire. Of course we want you to raise the alarm but nothing supercedes your personal safety. It's the same with using an extinguisher. In the end it's down to the individual, whether trained or not people will make their own decision. It's a potentially life threatening day when you face a fire and nobody will judge someone who decides either course of action. Most comments here advocate not using them. This is because, as safety people, we don't want someone to come to harm by taking on a fire and getting into difficulties. Training people might even make them more likely to take on risks during a fire that they would previously have avoided. My own advice to people is to first ensure your escape route is secure, then raise the alarm. Only when this is done should you think about tackling the fire. Mick

Posted By A Campbell Before we reinforce the “risk averse” culture... we need to take into account human behaviour elements. Cann we take into account as to... how far a person will go in oder to preserve lives & property? A small bin fire... can this grow into a larger fire that may be attempted to be extinguished by a person who may have a personal interest... e.g. senior manager, property/company owner? Would be worthwhile discussing with the fire authority as to what may be best policy in order to cover all bases?

Posted By mike morrell bob Clearly any attempt to fight a fire without first raising the alarm is not correct and must be strongly discouraged during fire safety training. That was not suggested but recognises that is some buildings evacuation can take some time.

Posted By shaun mckeever Ok lots of sensible things said above also some things I would disagree with. I think the first of all a little bit of common sense. Are you really going to leave the building when the flame is the size of a small birthday candle? I have heard some say yes to that! What if the flame was the size of a large sette, would you leave then? I have heard some people say they wouldn't. So really somewhere between the flame being the size of a small birthday candle and being the size of a large settee most people would decide to leave. The decision then is at what point. The common size given is that of a small waste bin. It really is up to you to decide when you think the risk is too great but commonsense must prevail. To those of you who say always leave it to the professionals irrespective of the size, please remember that by taking no action at a time when you could have then you may be placing at risk someone else in the building or even the firefighters who may now have to deal with a large fire.

Posted By shaun mckeever Bob The fire brigade do not advocate that you take no action at all irrespective of the size of a fire.

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Shaun, What I am saying is not to take no action, simply evacuate as the first option as most peole are not trained in how to use a fire extinguisher. I have seen people just throw the thing at the fire and believing they have acted cotrrectly. A key part of training someone to use a fire extinguisher is the assesment of the fires size and recognising when it is forlorn target so get the hell out. Far to many people have been seriously hurt or even killed because they thought they could put the fire out themselves instead of seeking help from the professionally trained unit.

Posted By Martin J Morley Shaun, I hope that the moderators will allow the use of a small section of Article 13 of the RRO "Fire-fighting equipment should be considered as a means of both prevention and protection. For example, preventing a small fire growing out of control and spreading beyond the area of origin, affecting the means of escape and posing a risk to relevant persons. It is likely therefore that some form of fire fighting equipment will be necessary in almost all cases. The responsible person must, in order to safeguard the safety of all relevant persons, nominate competent persons to implement fire-fighting measures." I have been advised that not training people to use extinguishers, because the policy is to evacuate, is not compliant and may lead to further action by the local fire service! regards, martin

Posted By Crim Hi Shaun, It all depend on lots of issues, too many to mention but I will briefly offer some thoughts. If there is life at risk, say in a residential nursing home, at night when the local fire station is not manned, I would demand my staff use fire extinguishers to fight a small fire to aid evacuation. Only trained personnel and at least 2 of them. If property only at risk, daytime when local brigade are only a few minutes away then sound the alarm and ensure evecuation takes place, then if safe to do so tackle the fire if trained, and at least 2 people. A small fire in a waste bin is a different animal to a small fire in a chip pan so don't just think a small fire will be easy to manage. A fire situation somewhere between the above is up to individual safety and competence, as I said too many issues to mention here. Just a small important point, someone thinks a fire extinguisher contains a few gallons of water, they are usually 9 litre or smaller.

Posted By A Campbell Gary has it right in my view... First action - raise the alarm Action on hearing alarm - get out, stay out until the fire is out Nothing on my fire action plan/posters indicate... then if safe.. attempt to put out the fire! simple... concise instructions.. no ifs no buts or maybes

Posted By FAH Hi Shaun - nice to hear from you again. I have some very well known views on this topic, frequently restated! So I shan't bang on about them here except to say that much of the discussions on this thread have failed to consider three simple, but important, points. First - regretably, the quote of FSO Article 13 is textually incorrect although I strongly support the apparent sentiment of the poster. Second - it's not the perceived size of the fire or its container that should be considered; it's the materials & substances that are directly involved in the fire as it is found that really matter. Third - Appropriate risk assessments that clearly define the responses to fire that that controller of the work will allow or otherwise must be completed. If it is decided that persons will be allowed, or encouraged, to attack fires; then there had better be a robust set of procedures as required by FSO Article 15 to support that decision! As most UK employers appear to rely overmuch on the advice of those that sell or hire the extinguishers in the first place; and rarely understand that ALL actions in response to a fire must be included in the "Fire response"; I have little hope that this debate will ever go away. Incidentally, why has no-one ever considered that relying on the extinguisher salesman for advice on what extinguishers should go where is really no different in consultancy terms [legal liability in criminal law - FSO Article 18] than relying on the h&S consultant who fails to deliver the goods [MHSW] - thereby leading to possible prosecution of both parties [with a bit of luck]. I can already hear the firelighters clicking! Frank Hallett

Posted By FAH GT - may I draw your attention to the Fire Safety Order [England & wales] or the scottish equivalent [if appropriate]. In answer to your question, please find below a paraphrased extract from FSO Article 13:- ...../in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that — the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms.../ and ..../The responsible person must, where necessary — take measures for fire-fighting in the premises, adapted to the nature of the activities carried on there and the size of the undertaking and of the premises concerned..../ Do not treat the above as gospel in the form that I have provided it. You must read the complete FSO in order to put the whole thing in context - which, to put it bluntly - is all about ensuring people survive any fire and NOT to save the insurers money!! Frank Hallett

Posted By shaun mckeever Martin, you asked for the reference - here is one - http://www.fia.uk.com/en...extinguisher_use_survey/ The other I'm afraid I cannot give because I don't know where to find it although I can tell you it was by the NHS. More answers and more that I would not subscribe to. What I wholeheartedly agree with and never disputed in the way I phrased the question is that the first action must always be to raise the alarm. What I do not subscribe to Crim, is that anyone can DEMAND that someone use an extinguisher. There have been some other good points raised including the issue about which substances are burning (Frank and Crim). I am surprised that there are still answers advocating no action except by the professionals even when the fire is as small as a birthday candle. The majority of fatal fires start with a small flame that could have been extinguished had someone been around to extinguish it. I think the medical analogy used earlier (was it this thread?) is good 'surely you wouldn't let someone bleed to death because you are not a doctor'.

Posted By FAH Hi Shaun I regret that I must disagree with the continued talk of a "small fire""! As I identified in my earlier post - it's not the apparent size of the fire that matters, it's what is IN the fire. These issues MUST be considered as part of the "responsible persons" risk assessments & suitable procedures formulated. This means that what one will consider acceptable may very definitely not be suitable in another workplace. Thanks for the recognition of my other point. Frank Hallett

Posted By Eliza Flutterby I wouldn't be gung-ho about using one, but if the circumstances arose, it was safe for me to use one and I had someone else acting as my eyes & ears, then yes, I would use a fire extinguisher. Just the one - if the fire still wasn't out I'd skedaddle... If I felt in the slightest way hinky about it, if I was on my own or just felt in any way uncomfortable with using the extinguisher, then I would be offski. Staff in my workplace have been told the same thing. Have a bash if you feel you can, if not, shut the door and leave smartish. Good thread Shaun! Eliza :-)

Posted By A Campbell water, I understand your point as my missis is involved with sheltered housing etc My question would be... who makes the call to send staff to go back in as many times a necessary? From my views of that type of environment you cannot always say the manager as at night it can be a senior? So when I see the normal instructions on discovering a fire i do not see a clause referring to a particular policy? If so would I not expect to see such signs that are common even in assisted housing buildings? as it is saying 1 thing but expecting staff do do another? And that of course go's for other types of working establishments also.... I do have experience of having to fight fires myself via offshore industry where you cannot apply this procedure!