Posted By Sally Pritlove I have a dilemma which I hope my esteemed colleagues may be able to help me with. My present employer (whom I will not name but will outline a bit of background information) has some quirky ideas as regards managerial duties and my own. We are a statutory body and as such do not posses articles of association or certificates of incorporation which I understand regulates internal management of an organisation. My employer is of the view that I and I alone undertake risk assessments and accident investigations and it’s nothing to do with his managers. Indeed he expresses a view that they will demand extra pay for the additional duties! He is also of the view that best practice doesn’t apply (which will all know it does) and that known and proven factors as regards accident investigation outcomes (root causes) are “management bashing”. He states that the employer delegates day to day running of the organisation to his “officers” of which I am one and therefore all these duties are mine. We all know this is not what the HSE advocate nor Regulation 7. Does anyone have any authoritative sources of information that can convince him otherwise? Please don’t suggest training as I already have. Many thanks

Posted By TDsafety I would ask them why there are loads of regs with management responsibilities ie CDM, MHSW. None of them are called the Safety advisor regs. Managers manage. Safety advisors advise and assist

Posted By Sally Pritlove Thanks for that guys. I should point out that my title is Health and Safety Manager hence the view they are my duties. (I do wish it was advisor, at the time of appointment I din't appreciate just what a challenge the word would create).

Posted By Bob Youel talk to the manage above your manager!

Posted By Mick China Sally "Successful H&S Management" HSG65 would help you here. The responsibilities of managers are explained at length. There is also the very useful "Role and Functions of H&S Advisers" in Chapter 3. Also, point out to the boss that this document is published by HSE, not just anyone. If he chooses to ignore these principles, he might have to explain and justify his decisions if there is ever a serious incident! Regards Mick

Posted By Raymond Rapp Sally Commiserations. However, the HSWA s2(1) states that 'Every employer...which includes your company unless it has crown immunity, which is highly unlikely. Ray

Posted By Pete48 Sally, seems to me that your boss would just expect you to be doing all the things outlined by previous posters. I can almost hear the statement if I listen carefully enough. "You are after all the safety manager, it is what I pay you for, so why are you not managing it?" Your situation is remarkably common. Waving codes, threatening legal consequences, pointing out that they are not the best managers in the world and gnashing of teeth will not improve safety in such circumstances. Ever tried telling another driver that they better drive more slowly 'cos they will get fined if they don't? I have another suggestion for you. Why not just manage it? It gives you a great foot into the managerial circle. You can demand things based on your assessments just the same as a manager demands things for meeting contracts. I need this to make sure the company meets this law or code is no different from a line manager saying I need this to produce x widgets. OK, so it ain't HSG65 but it is a step closer and you will have identified and placed into managerial consciousness the need to manage it. Then one day? If it doesn't work out, then you can leave on a positive note. I am not saying do it all yourself. I am saying lead it and do the leg work, organise the risk assessments, fill out the paper, build the risk reduction programme, involve whoever you need to involve to get that project sorted, demand their involvement as a fellow manager, making management reports on progress and what you need to continue. For example, investigations are more useful if properly done but is there a legal duty to do so? How much effort would you need to put in to try changing your bosses mind on that one? Is it really worth it just now? If not then maybe that is one to leave toward the bottom of the pile. So and so on........

Posted By Martyn Hendrie Sally, Without wishing you to divulge any information that would identify your organisation does your organisation have "crown immunity"? If so it may be worth pointing out that although the organisation cannot be prosecuted individual officers (especially senior officers) can be individually prosecuted if the do not fulfil their responsibilities. (i.e. to make sure suitable arrangements are in place) Lumping all safety responsibilities onto you because of of your job title does not wash. Neither does a situation where things cannot happen without the express permission of your manager. Managers must give their subordinated the resources to meet their legal obligations. Without knowing more (which you understandably may not wish to put on this forum)it is difficult to advise further other than the ultimate sanction is to get the enforcing authority involved.

Posted By Sally Pritlove No, we don't have crown immunity and there is no one above my boss. The Board have no say in the running of the organisation, they merely oversee it. I suppose you could say we're a quango.

Posted By Jay Joshi Refer to "Leading health and safety at work" http://www.hse.gov.uk/leadership/index.htm What is the meaning of a board overseeing, but not having any say?? Yes, most boards do not have a say in the operational matters and day to day running, but surely, they would have oversight of health and safety policy & performance! Oversight of policy should include the organisation structure that delivers & implements health and safety policy.

Posted By Sally Pritlove Thanks guys for all your responses and ideas. My boss is the name on the policy and the chairman of the Board will countersign it and yes my duties are defined. I made double sure of all these things when I revamped it. To add to this it won't be ratified until Oct this year as it takes that long to go through the various hoops of approval............but that is another story I won't bore you with. Please do continue to advise me if you feel you can, but for now I'm going home to have a stress free weekend.

Posted By Sally Pritlove Unfortunately my boss is no where near retirement. There is a great deal of "silo" thinking here in that events occurring in businesses outside of this one don't apply..... The other idea is that if an agency suggests we should be doing something we can't as I don't work for them, so I can only do what my boss wants. You get the idea..... The Board are merely a figure head to a large extent, the day to day running is down to my boss. Sorry I can't say more than that as regards the management structure as it would give too much away and I need to protect the innocent. I think it will be a case of slowly, slowly and keep all the evidence possible to cover myself professionally. Thanks for the feedback guys.