Posted By AJM I have a question i would just like to canvas opinion on if possible. As we know agency work is quite widespread these days but how do people view the resbonsibilities and liabilities of the Agencies that supply labour only to companies. Where do people believe the responsibility begins and ends if at all? and how much difference does it make if the agency is the payer or a third party pays. One more question would be, how do you see the accident of an agency worker being handled in this scenario with regards to investigation and reporting etc.. Thanks in advance for assistance, i am just interested in an area a may come into contact with in the near future. Regards Alan

Posted By Bob Youel try the search facility as this item has been discussed in-depth before Its a very complicated area and it depends on each situation and the 'controller' is always the responsible person - its trying to get to the bottom of just who is the 'controller' that's the hard bit We have a mix [~1600 agency staff at any one time] and some are controlled by the agency whilst others are controlled by the undertaking

Posted By Jack See this HSE info: http://www.businesslink....=www.businesslink.gov.uk Legal responsibility depends on who is the employer. Effective management of the h&s of agency workers depends on the Agency and the user employer being clear about and agreeing who does what in practice.

Posted By Raymond Rapp As Bob stipulates, this is not a simple area of the law. Case law dictates that the employer is the person who pays the wages of the employee and therefore the duty-holder. However, other contextual impositions many provide a number of contradictions. By coincidence I am reviewing the competency of our agency staff, some of which are also supervisors, with particular reference to reg 4 of CDM Regs. Following an incident on site our head office has tasked me with checking the skills and knowledge of people with regards to risk assessment and risk control measures. Having a nightmare to be honest. A quick review of our skills data base reveals many inconsistencies with regards to qualifications of both contractors and staff - never mind their knowledge of risk assessments! Interested to hear what other colleagues make of it all.

Posted By Phil Grace Furtehr to my previous comments. Most disputes about agency workers revolve around employment rather than H&S issues - e.g. discrimination, unfair dismissal etc. James v Greenwich (2008): Claimant worked for council, stopped working and then returned as agency worker.. There were two contracts one between agency and claimant and another between agency and council. The one between agency and council stated that the individual "... would be under the supervision, direction and control of the council.." and that the agency would be responsible for remuneration and deduction of PAYE/NICS. Cable & Wireless v Muscat (2005): In tis case the individual was judged to be an employee of the end user - since there was "... an implied contract...." Brooke Street Bureau v Dacas( 2004) : In this case the individual worked for the end user for 5 years before being dismissed for alleged misconduct. The individual then alleged unfair dismissal... The case was heard as follows: Employment Tribunal: Decided that individual was not an employee (of end user) since there were no contracts Employment appeal Tribunal: This overturned the previous decision, finding that she was an employee of the agency (hence no unfair dismissal) Court of Appeal: Overturned EAT .. Interesting that a press comment cases such as these commented that the outcome will always depend upon the "facts" and true nature of the relationship between the parties....!! Phil

Posted By Charlie0538 I Have asked the same question of my local authority as a main employer of agency staff in a warehouse environment. Their response was exactly what i would have expected, no difinable line (or am i being niaive), they said. "An employer's health and safety duties towards agency staff can not be passed to another party by civil contract. Employment agencies and employers should ensure that there is a clear understanding of who is responsible for the day to day management of the health and safety of agency staff; it is recommended that this agreement is recorded in writing." thanks charlie

Posted By Raymond Rapp Much of case law is not based on health and safety issues but still applies. The case I referred to previously was a HM Revenue and Customs case, which decreed that an 'employee' is a person who provides a service as as per contract of employment. Conversely, a person who is a 'service provider' is not deemed an employee. The employer was deemed to be the person who paid the wages directly to the employee and not who engaged the employee. The actual case citation escapes me for the moment. I am not suggesting that this example is definitive or even the only one in this complex area of law. Suffice to say that making presumptions serves no purpose.

Posted By Bob Thompson CMIOSH Octel v rgp 1995 clarifies the relationship between contractors/supplied labour. basic summary is that if you employ a contractor or similar to do a job on your behalf, they are to be classed as employees of your company. because if they did not do the work ,you would have to therefore it is your undertaking. Bob