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Posted By David Bannister
I was on a site last week where the posted external speed limit is 5mph but this is clearly being ignored. It is used by two site occupants (buses and full-size HGVs) plus visiting HGV drivers. In my view the 5mph limit is unrealistic but I am seeking some advice on how to set a limit that can be reasonably safe, acceptable to the drivers and enforceable.
Pedestrians are rare on the roadways and do use Hi-vis vests. Part of the road is by necessity two-way and another part requires vehicles to cross the incoming site access route. Visibility and lighting is good.
My problem is whether to set 10, 15 or 20mph, or some other intermediate limit (say 13mph). Whilst this was discussed in a thread in 2006 there was no real conclusion not consensus.
Opinions sought please.
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Posted By A Campbell
Hi David,
It's an interesting point as a lot of goverment media reffers to 20 mph in built up areas.
i suppose it would depend on the ammount of pedestrian trafic - if designated walkways are in situ etc?
5 mph may be regarded as a snail pace (1st gear comes to mind!) although could still be justified.
In addition... how much additional cost is involved in changing your signage? How many near miss or incidents have occurred over the years?
To make a decision would likely entail all these areas with involvement and money from your board?
Lastly have you looked at enforcement by way of reminder to the bus company, regular delivery firms and other site occupiers?
Although not work related I have a small civil engineer company based in my village who have a sign displaying max 20mph in the village... flouted daily and wrote to their MD reminding of the self rule and their liability if a traffic incident occurred!
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Posted By bereznikov
Hi David,
From my personal experiences, whenever i have worked on a single site, the speed limits have been enforced at 5mph for the instances where there is a one-way system in operation and space restrains exist, and 10mph in larger single sites that are more open and have 2-way systems in operation.
A large and rather well-known chemicals site in Thornton-Cleveleys (Lancashire) has numerous separate industrial units operating within the site boundaries, and have in force a 20mph speed limit applicable to all the vehicular movements on the large site i.e. wagons, tankers, cars, bicycles etc. Access onto the site is via a manned gate operator building where vehicles details and purpose of visit are logged. This speed limit is enforced through the erection of numerous speed limit signs along the roads, and also periodically (twice a week for a few hours) by a speed gun operator - whereby the "3 strikes and you're out" principle applies ("out" meaning you are prohibited from accessing the site in your vehicle for 1 month i think).
Hope this is useful information,
regards,
bereznikov
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Posted By Peter_hse
Regarding speed limits - does anyone know how enforceable the speed limits are on a typical industrial site? I'm thinking that the roads are not public roads and are not necessarily owned by the resident company.
Obviously we can't issue speed tickets but can ban or prevent access if appropriate from an H&S point of view.
If an accident occurs and drivers were not being constantly reminded to drive below the speed limit then the company may be negligent. But isn't a speed limit sign a constant reminder? Any thoughts...?
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
The site I am currently working on already has a 5mph speed limit enforced by the Client which we share with other roads users because it is a working train depot. I do not think that 5mp is a realistic speed, but there it is. The problem here is if you say 10mph people will do 15mph or more.
On site inductions I say to drivers that if you are doing no more than 10mph no one will notice, but if you are doing 15-20mph you will get pulled up. Anyone caught breaching the rule will have driving privileges on site revoked.
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Posted By Haggis JM
...so you're telling them at induction that the site rules don't mean anything?
We operate a 10mph site limit which I would love to bring down to 5mph.
10mph is very hard to judge, particularly on FLT's which don't have a speedo, but 5mph is close to walking pace.
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Posted By Mike DF
A client I used to visit had a well enforced 5 mph limit. If you were caught overtaking a pedestrian you would lose your valuable on-site parking permit and go to the back of the queue to get another one.
It worked.
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Posted By DP
To all of you that have speed limits? How do you enforce them - do you have speed cameras? If you have no way to measure are they not just numbers?
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
...there is a need to be realistic sometimes, safe speeds for FLTs may not be suitable for a telehandler and vice versa.
Enforcing speed limits are very difficult and particularly without any interventions such as speed bumps. Therefore a number of different controls could be used, both physical and psychological. The threat of sanctions against violators cannot be discounted either. However, with physical constraints there is no guarantee that people will not break speed limits whatever speed it is.
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Posted By John J
You'd be surprised how difficult it is to judge the speed of a vehicle and, in my experience, larger vehicles look and sound faster than they are actually going.
We use a Speed Indication Display (SID)to monitor our 20mph and 10mph speed limits, we also have calibrated Radar guns at our disposal if required.
Penalties are:
20-30mph
First offence Warning – (Remains on file for 12 months)
Second offence Pass withdrawn for 3 months
Third offence Pass withdrawn for 6 months + re-apply to waiting list (after ban ends)
Fourth offence Pass withdrawn permanently
30+
First offence Pass withdrawn for 6 months + re-apply to waiting list (after ban ends)
Second offence Pass withdrawn permanently
As previous post says you need to be able to measure it before you can enforce it.
Most of our roads are similar to offsite 30mph roads but with slow moving vehicles hence the 20mph. The 10mph is restricted to roads with additional hazards (blind spots, heavy pedestrian usage etc.)
We don't apply 5mph as its almost impossible to measure (SIDs start at 10mph) and not easy to drive,
Regards,
John
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Posted By DP
Thanks John - that’s what I was thinking off. You sound like alls in control there.
Other than that you maybe leaving yourself open to enforcement action IMO. You are putting in a mandatory instruction you have no means to measure..
Any enforcers please advise me otherwise?
If you can't measure then would instruction to drivers informing them of the hazards and any public interaction public be better, with further guidance to maintain reasonable speeds at all times.
Be interesting to get an enforcement perspective?
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Posted By David Bannister
Thanks to all responders so far. Further comments very welcome.
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Posted By Richard Altoft
David, many power stations use 15, one i know used 13.5 as the speed limit as they thought it was more "eye catching" One day a lorry driver walked the length of a very long driveway entrance and asked security where the entrance was for tall lorries as his lorry was taller than 13.5 feet. At the end of the day as I sure you know people do what they think is reasonable unless forced to do something else. Forcing by speed bumps has drawbacks, forcing by penalties is limited by enforcement action and by "special cases" such as MDs.
I had a persistent offender one a site I ran many years ago who delivered to us about three times a week. The contract was worth about £250,000 in all. After getting no joy from driver or his manager I rang the Sales Director to tell him that the contract was cancelled. Result driver dismissed, manager made to apologise and no more trouble. Any system that relies on human cooperation will always have limited success unless enforcement is 1110%. 20 limit rigidly enforced will be more effective than 5 that is not.
R
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Posted By Pete48
A few random thoughts about site speed limits. The lowest speed limit set for any public road is 20mph.
In the UK speed limits must be in increments of 10mph. So 15, 25, 35 etc cannot be used on the highway.
Vehicle speedos do not have to show anything less than 10mph increments.
There are now provisions for "home zones" and "quiet lanes" on highways. These are specially marked areas with warnings to drivers that they might expect pedestrians etc to be in the highway and to drive accordingly. They are in addition to any speed limits imposed. It is clearly the drivers responsibility to drive safely according to conditions in such areas.
From memory the 5mph limit is derived from the old Dead Slow. This term is rooted in other transport history. For example as the slowest speed at which a ship can still be safely manoeuvred, on the railway as meaning as slow as possible which was usually something akin to 4mph or less.
All this shows that it was never meant to be used as a strict speed limit in the modern sense of road safety but more an indication that the environment or the driving tasks being undertaken required especial care.
Food for thought then in whether to enforce or impose such limits.
If one chooses to do so how would you justify a limit lower than the minimum 20mph on the highway? Are the risks much different if we are talking paved roads and yards?
Would it not be better to outline a code that reinforces the specific dangers of the site to both pedestrians and keep the guidance in line with the highway code and transport law? The highway code not because it applies on private property but because it is the standard that we are all used to and should drive within anyway.
If there is a limit then a driver can argue that they were driving within the limit. Dead slow means dead slow, the slowest speed at which it is possible to drive and maintain full control of the vehicle. It is a code not a limit.
As I said just some random thoughts. I trust they will challenge the traditional view of impose and enforce.
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