Posted By Bobby Brown
Afternoon all,

I have been contacted by the Education Authority representatives as I have agreed to have my son on a one week work experience with me. They say I must have Employers Liability Insurance even though I do not need it for myself - I'm a one man band Ltd Company and CMIOSH. Do I really need EL cover for five days?

I've had a read of the HSE document by the way hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse40.pdf

Hope you can help on this.

Regards
Bobby

Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Sorry, Bobby

I have just checked your reference and I don't think mine takes you any further forward.

Paul

Posted By Lee Mac
Bobby

It will mention in the doc you referenced about family business not being required to have this cover but as far as I recall a Ltd. company does not fall into this exemption- correct me if I am wrong.

On the proviso that it is only for 5 days then I would seek further clarification from your LA on the matter as it would be a bit extreme in my view to have cover for this short of a period especially when it is family being employed.


Lee

Posted By Yossarian
Bobby,

You may find it is a standard requirement of placements for the LA to request this.

They may be worried that if your son is injured while on a placement with you that they will attract some form of liability for failing to raise the issue should your son sue you.

I don't know if such a fear is justified - but stranger things have happened.

Neither do I know of any guidance other than what you have suggested.

Posted By Peter F
Don't know much about it but couldn't you contact an insurance company and take it out just for the week. If the LA insist on it then the only person to suffer is your son, loses the experience of work and also misses out on spending time with his dad seeing what he does.

I am presuming you get on with your son as you want him with you.

Posted By Ron Hunter
As there will be no contract of employment (implied or otherwise) one could argue that your son (not being an employee) could not in any event have a claim under such insurance?
Go on by a devil, ask the Education Authority WHY they require you to have this Insurance!

Posted By A Campbell
Isn't a young person if on a educational placement not regarded as an employee during that time under H&S Law?

Posted By Pete48
Children under MSLA attending on a formal work experience placement should be treated as employees. Unequivocal and clearly spelt out in all the relevant guidance.
The requirement for ELI cover for family members is placed by the relevant LEA who have the legal responsibility for setting out the standards for their schools. It is a common condition of approval for any placement that ELI must be in place even for close family members.
The fact that such cover is not strictly required by law is in some ways irrelevant. It is surely a sensible and desirable protection to provide for your own sons or daughters? Why would you want to offer your child less protection than they would be afforded if they attended a third party provider or indeed that you would be required by law to provide if you took another's child on WEX?
The ABI recognise that cover for such placements falls within the normal ELI cover of a business and it is only where the provider does not normally employ anyone that an additional cost may arise.
The cost is usually no more than few pounds if it has to be put into place especially for a short placement. The last example I can recall was £20 for a weeks cover in a motor cycle workshop. As a qualified and competent person you will be able to explain your risk assessment (which you are required to complete for the child) to your insurers and this should ensure the premium is very minimal.
Formal work experience placements for children in year 10 and 11 is a specialised area of control where things are not always as one might expect. The paramount consideration is the safeguarding of children and this can bring additional demands that are not directly related to normal workplace rules and regs.
I hope that helps to clarify the position for you and helps you to follow up with your placement assessor or your child's school.

Posted By Yossarian
Pete, as an aside:

"The ABI recognise that cover for such placements falls within the normal ELI cover of a business and it is only where the provider does not normally employ anyone that an additional cost may arise."

I don't know if the situation has changed in the last 12 months, but previously what the Association of British Insurers (ABI) was saying was contradicted by individual insurers. This resulted in several of our placements being cancelled because employers refused to pay the premium.

Posted By Ron Hunter
My point being that "regarded in H&S law" is not necessarily pertinent or relevant to a claim against a policy, where the insurer will want to be satisfied that the claimant is actually an employee.
There exists a legal "test" to determine this status in other areas (e.g. employment law) and I am of the opinion that a temporary unwaged school student on placement would not satisfy the criteria.
ELCI is not Health & Safety Law. Neither does ELCI define the term "employee".

Posted By Stuff4blokes
Work will be done, under the direction of the controlling mind of the organisation, by an individual, presumably for some reward, subject to the rules and norms of the organisation, from a specified start date.

Sounds like employment to me.

Son injured during work, father negligent, liability will exist. The possibility of a civil claim then exists. Liability insurance therefore seems like a good idea.

Whether this should be a public liability insurance policy of one of employers liability is one for the insurance experts on here.

Posted By Ron Hunter
Sally: In any event, the youngster can always sue for damages.
Stuff4blokes: that's your interpretation, not the legal test (+ work experience youngsters aren't paid)
Pete48: I concede. I was unaware of the ABI convention. I trust it is binding? (has it ever been tested?) I also trust it is not merely a construct to enable addditional policies & premiums to be established. No offence mind!
Thanks for discussing my pov.
I might be getting more cynical with age...........

Posted By Ron Hunter
Thanks Pete. I live and learn.

Posted By Crim
I occasionally take my 11 year old son with me on site visits. This is when he is on holiday from school and I am staying away in a hotel for the night. We book a hotel with a pool and he looks forward to the whole experience including a good meal in the hotel.

The work involved for me is health and safety inspection of shop fitting projects and my son just follows me around as an observer. He has really taken to it and has begun to notice safety hazards and is quick to point them out to me.

Just recently he has got fed up fairly quickly and sat in the car.

Is this any different to work experience? Do I need to consider insurance for him? I always check with the contractor before taking him on site.

By he way he says my job is easy as all I do is ask questions?

Posted By Adrian Clifton
Bobby

Your son will be classed as an employee and therefore ELI is required. Your insurance company should be able to give short-term cover which used to cost around £30 a couple of years ago.

Without ELI, your son's school should not permit the work experience to take place. Most work experience placements are monitorred by a local Education Business Alliance/Partnership who should visit you before the placement begins. As part of the visit they should ask to see your ELI, and if it is not in place the placement should be refused.