Posted By Coshh Assessor
Could you explain your logic there a bit more, John?

There is no requirement under any legislation for anyone to have an MSc (or indeed a GCSE for that matter) in any subject whatsoever, yet many people still have an MSc in all sorts of subjects. I suppose we think that learning is valuable, even if it's not required by legislation.

Posted By Swis
John,

I'll quote your line which you've posted in one of the other threads today;

" I would not say the NEBOSH Cert is redundant, provided you can bring suitable experience to the post, although you will have to do a degree or diploma or NVQ 4 to give you the core paper knowledge needed to be a competent h & s officer / advisor or manager though in the future."


Swis

Posted By Coshh Assessor
Well John, I suppose that whether you see an MSc as a lot of academic pressure depends on how academic you are.

Do you really believe that if you did an MSc you would learn nothing from it?

Posted By Pete Longworth
I reckon the prime motivation is ego. We see endless threads on these forums of the type "What next? I've done my diploma so should I go for the masters, then the Phd etc etc etc"

Why? What value does it add to the job you are doing, this constant pursuit of an extended signature? How many times to we see similar requests for advice on more vocational "qualifications" such as a trainer the trainer certificate? Very rarely. It's always the academic route that in my view is of questionable extra value. that's why i think it's all about ego. Just my opinion of course.

Posted By John Fraser

pete

My sentiments exactly - health and safety ( and environmental) advisors are meant to be practicable people not academics in my view. This can be demonstrated by CPD and having a basic core competency of h & s knowledge.

I find a lot of h & s people who have MScs in safety have an inflated opinion of themselves personally.

John

Posted By Haggis JM
John - practical may apply to those people delivering training to the workforce, but what avbout those who are trying to devise overall strategies for national or international legislation or standards?

Posted By martinw
I think that it goes with the territory really. No-one really would question a medical consultant having a higher opinion of themselves than a junior doctor, due to a number of different reasons: time taken, achievement of goals, effort put in to get there, industry status, passing difficult exams etc.
In my previous job I used to go into universities, colleges and major training organisations and look at their health and safety policies and procedures, and decide if they were up to the job. During some of this period I was not a member of IOSH - I had never heard of them. Only had NEBOSH Gen Cert but was grilling CMIOSH's and deciding if they knew what they were on about. Marvellous, really! Those who I shared this information with became rather condescending at times and felt affronted that some oik with hardly any qualifications had the audacity to ask impertinent questions. So what? people are who they are - some of the heads of health and safety were exceptional, some were gonks. It was the individuals themselves rather than any qualification they had which determined their ability to do their job properly and more importantly to be able to effectively communicate.

Posted By clairel
...being as I'm such an egotistical person I won't lower myself to reply again!

Posted By Flic
Why do a masters degree? - personal achievement perhaps.

Why learn more? Why not?

Surely, knowing more is always a good thing?

I would consider doing a Masters if I was not so close to retirement.

The fact that a Masters Degree exists tells us that H&S is a subject worthy of academic study, which is a good thing. Many people think it is a shallow subject consisting of nothing more than a 'don't touch that, it's hot' approach.

As mentioned earlier, the level of H&S knowledge needed to go into contingency planning or building a chemical plant demands depth of study and a knowledge of the science surrounding the subject.

Flic

Posted By Jay Joshi
The reason health and safety advisors do Masters Degree is because there is a choice and also because some may want to increase their breadth and depth of knowledge and achieve recognition. Some, based on thier individual circumstances and capabilities may opt to get an MSc directly without undertaking any of the lower qualifications

It is no longer the monopoly of NEBOSH/BSC to offer Occupational health and Safety Qualifications as it used to be pre 1990's.

The increase in offering of Occupational health and Safety qualifications by Universities has been since early 1990's after the implementation of the framework and daughter directives and initially, funding from what was previously the Technology Enterprise Councils (now Sector Skills Councils).

There are very few degree level courses from Universities in occupational health and safety.

Some Universities also offer a modular route i.e via post graduate certificate to post graduate diploma to a post graduate degree.

In most of the other developed and also developing countries, degrees are held at higher esteem.


Last but not least, the NEBOSH/BSC Diploma is not a degree level recognised qualification for some of the points based immigration system criteria, such as for Australia!

Posted By Paul Duell
Don't really know why this thread had to descend into such nastiness...but there we are.

If I ever get round to doing an MSc, it'll be because (in no particular order)
1) I like learning
2) It looks good on the CV
3) I'm interested in H&S (as I'm guessing most of us are), and when I'm interested in any subject I want to know more about it.

I'm currently self-funding my NEBOSH Environmental certificate: I don't expect it to cause offers of work to come flooding in, and already having NGC and DipNEBOSH I'm not going to get swollen-headed over having another certificate-level qualification (assuming I pass!). It's just about liking to learn.

As others have said, if you don't need extra qualifications, and don't enjoy learning for its own sake, fine - no-one is criticising you for that. Don't criticise others because they're not the same as you.

Posted By Raymond Rapp
Oh dear, I had a feeling this may be a contentious thread - don't know why it should be though.

Not wishing to repeat others' comments on the reasons for a Masters, I will add to enhance one's job prospects is as good as any other reason.

Apart from the obvious h&s learning curve there are also other learning outcomes like researching, report writing skills and of course spelling and grammar.

Posted By pol
I really cannot understand why a person should be criticised for undertaking a course of learning be it a one day , one week residential or part or full time academic course. If the period of learning is informative, enjoyable, challenging and of benefit then whether or not you are entitled to letters, numbers or classifications after your name if it provides you with further insight into your remit then there is always the potential for it to benefit others.
personally I hated school, hardly turned up, but through self funded ed I have more degrees that O-levels GCSE's but don't use post nominals I just enjoy structured learning.

Posted By Ian Sharpe
There is one other reason that seems to have been missed. Purely that of missing out.

Without bemoaning the subject when I left school uni wasn't an option at all. Now I'm in a position where it is....

I work in H&S therfore the logical step would be an Msc... eventually

Posted By John Fraser

Clare

Is that what CPD is all about, rather than undertake a MSc ? i.e Experience of the job / issues that arise, and knowing ones own limitations of when to seek help - HSE / EA / EH if one is faced with a novel situation.


John

Posted By Derrick Robinson
I am surprised that this thread has thrown up such strong views. I would have thought that as a profession that should be essentially supportive of others we would have been more supportive of our own colleagues and we would have welcomed diverse life experiences, qualifications and learning styles amongst our fellows.
I can only give you my reasons for doing an MSc which I am currently 1/2 way through.

I wanted to see if i could. If that's ego then fair enough, I left school at 15 without even an O level and if I get through the course I will be the last person in my immediate family to graduate, some way behind my own daughter!!

I gained CMIOSH via the NVQ route and I wanted to add an academic aspect to my vocational qualifications.

I like to learn, I have learnt allot on the MSc.

I chose an MSc with a strong environmental content. Environmental Management is part of my brief and I had no formal training in the field so by doing the MSc I am directly equipping myself for the work I have to do.

I suppose that if I pass I will be able to take both sides of the debate, I will have vocational qualifications so I will be able to sneer at the academics and I will have a degree so I will be able to sneer at the people who don't. In fact I hope I will continue to welcome that I work in a profession with many diverse routes of entry where competent people from lots of backgrounds make a valuable contribution. This diversity is one of the strengths of our profession and I hope we can all encourage it. If doing a masters is good for you do it and good luck, if you favour more practical training then good luck with that to. The important thing is that we all respect each other as professionals and that we are all allowed to develop in our own ways.

Posted By Richard Altoft
Why do people climb Everest - because it is there (so said Edmund Hillary after he did just that)
Why did I do a MSc - because I knew I could.I went on to do a lot more.My life, my choice. Regulations set minimum standards -- only we can set the maximum standard we achieve.
R

Posted By jmack
I like the response from Stuff4blokes. By the way that is a great name - Health and Safety is for blokes, there are far too many women tottering about on heels with clipboards in our profession today.

Posted By digicarl
I have just come across this thread and have read all of it with great interest.
All sides have a valid argument, some well educated and qualified people are egotistical, and like to push their weight around with the "look at me" mentality. There again there are plenty of these type of people in all walks of life and at all qualification/education levels.
Is it not so much the qualification you hold, more how you present yourself in the workplace, treat your peers and subordinates? You can have all the knowledge in the world and still not be accepted because of your outlook and approach.
If you want to better yourself, go for it and well done. If you are content where you are, equally well done. As long as everybody works together and the workforce etc are safe and go home at the end of the working day to their families. After all that is one of our main priorities working in this field isn't it??

Posted By PMW
Wow - why would anyone want to stop learning? Of course an element is learned in the working environment and not 'in class'. Experience is important, but you can't learn everything with only on the job experience. I read many posts, with relevant guidance and advice offered by our members and I just think, 'I want to be that knowledgable one day'. I strive to be the best I can be in my job and I can honestly say that every course I have completed, I have come away with an improved level of knowledge and understanding.
Disappointed at the 'non constructive' (nicest way I can put it) responses AGAIN.