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Posted By Coshh Assessor
I've just been incensed to see, from what I always thought of as a reputable supplier of safety products, an envelope marked "Health & Safety Law Notice - Legal Compliance - Action Required" and inside a leaflet showing a red cross over the old-style law poster and a green tick over the new one, with text that gives the strong impression (without precisely saying so) that displaying the new one is a legal requirement.
Is this sort of misleading advertising illegal and can anything be done about it?
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Posted By SNS
Had one too, put it in the recycling. Phoned the company to let them know that they are off our purchasing list.
They seemed surprised ...
Properly completed the current posters are legal for 5 years more.
Rgds,
S
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Posted By Swis
I personally believe that we should boycott such companies.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Sharp practice but probably due to lack of wording not illegal.
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Posted By Mike DF
I saw the same flyer - the popular safety sign supplier. Could this be a job for advertising standards?
I looked at them for 'no smoking' signs for our new premises. Came in at around £15, about the same as RS. Our stationary supplier delivered them for about £3 each so they are first call now for safety signage
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Posted By Safety officer
but they are a legal requirement its just that you have 5 years to comply... so they are not lying.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Why dont people stop this rubbish about the new law posters. They are a legal requirement NOW and the newe style must be used not the old ones. You won't be able to buy any of the old style posters anyway. The legal requireement is for the new ones to be posted. BUT there is permission granted that the old style can continue to be used as long as they are in good condition and provide acurate information to employees. So stop causing unessesary discussion about the new posters they are a legal duty so get on with it.
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Posted By Mike Craven
I also received the same correspondence. On arriving at the office - half asleep! - this morning, I saw a rather "official looking" envelope in the centre of my desk; my HR Manager colleague had been to collect the mail, thought it looked very important, and had placed it prominently on my desk.
First reaction was, "oh heck (or words to that effect!), we've got some sort of notice from HSE". However, on opening the envelope, I immediately realised that it was a circular from a suppplier of H&S signs/products trying to sell me the new H&S Law Poster. The correspondence went into the recycling bin.
Like others have suggested, I could "boycott" this company and/or cancel my account, although I can't remember the last time I actually purchased anything from them! However, although their approach - both in terms of their sending out sales-flyers in official looking envelopes, and potentially implying that the old H&S Law Poster is no longer legally compliant - might be considered to be misleading and morally wrong, I'm not certain that it's "illegal" (as the OP has asked.)
I have, however, spotted that they are selling the new H&S Law Poster at a higher price than the HSE. I wonder if that is something that the HSE could look at? Is there anything in law that prevents people "selling on" official documents for profit? Is it legal to reproduce official documents and sell them on at inflated prices?
Just a few thoughts.
Mike
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Posted By Bob Y
My understanding is that you DON'T need to display the new posters yet (but I could be wrong).
Isn't this the usual sort of scare mongering advertising, based on half truths or (deliberately) obtuse interpretation of the law that we are used to in our work.
I for one aren't going to get to worked up about it, nor will I bother boycotting anyone.
The poster, either new or old just isn't going to make any significant difference to the management of risk. Indeed at one point I thought that the HSE were going to drop the poster all together. (Just off to go and put my stab vest and hard hat on!).
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
No it is nothing to do with scare mongering it is simply the truth. You are legally obliged to display the poster (you alway have) or provide separate notices to every employee. The new law poster has been updated and should be displayed but you can continue for five years to display those already in place aqs long as they remain curent as to the information they provide and remain readable. If they fail any of the tests they must be repalced with the new version, end of news.
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Posted By John J
I've got the posters ready to go up not because I want to be compliant in a few years but because I think they look better and might actually get people to have a look at them now.
Are we surprised this product is advertised this way? Granted to most people this may be misleading but no more so than many other H&S advertisements
Fear (in this case fear of not being compliant with the law) is used to sell everything so why are we surprised that it is used in health and safety?
Some of the leading charities in this country only exist because thy present facts in a way to suit themselves. Alarm companies don't pitch up with 'the chances of you getting burgled are very remote so the benefits may be questionable. Why not invest in a set of good locks'.
There are no lies in the flier just a slightly misleading tag line. The worst that will happen is someone will have the poster a few years earlier than required
John.
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Posted By James Norman
I've had this letter come in too. Doesn't suprise me though. They are a terrible company to deal with in my opinon. Have you seen their prices? ridiculously high!
We don't really buy much from them, unless we have to use them as last resort though - Thank god!
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Posted By Bill Parkinson
Not had this circular but can understand some of the concerns as saw an advert in one of the magazines which clearly implied that you had to replace the existing posters. It was until you read the small print at the bottom did you realise that you could use the existing posters (as long as they can still be read and contain the correct info). Some smaller organisations may be duped into buying the posters now and not realised that you can get them from HSE at a lower price than that advertised.
We won't be using the new posters unless we need some more as had 100 delivered a few months before the new one was published (as I couldn't order the new one and had to replace a number of posters).
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Posted By Peter Still
I haven't received this mailshot, but if it is misleading and appears to have come from HSE, then someone should take it to their local Trading Standards office.
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Posted By Bob Y
Bob S - I agree that the wording on the HSE website http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/lawposter.htm is open to interpretation, including your interpretation that the new poster HAS to be displayed NOW. That is not my interpretation and I have just called the HSE infoline. They have told me categorically that "..in order to prevent an unnecessary burden upon employers.." that the new poster does NOT have to be displayed immediately and that the old poster can continue to be used in ISOLATION (i.e. without the new poster) as long as it is up to date, but that the new poster must be displayed by 5th April 2014.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Quite correct they can continue to be used provided the information contained on them is both current and readable. Should any information become out of date or illegable they must be replaced with the new poster. There is no way of getting around this, the conditions placed upon the employer are quite clear if the old poster is in any way inaccurate they must be replaced with the new ones. End of story, it is the law.
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Posted By Phil Rose
I haven't seen the advert, and if it is misleading then it can be reported to the ASA on their website. It's the usual 'sharp practice' or selective interpretation of the law that we kinda get used to in this business. I remember EN 3 and I had a small agricultural call me up (I work for an LA) to say that their supplier had told them that they had to replace all of their fire extinguishers there and then for red ones. Ho hum! All in a days work. If your old ones comply, then replace them at your leisure!
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Posted By Ian Blenkharn
There is nothing new about advertising flimflam - we are bombarded with it every day
It may well be legal, it may be just legal, or perhaps a little to far over the line. But I guess that there are many far more important things to worry about and would rate this on a par with the anti-wrinkle creams and hair restorer, 'healthy' foods full of salt and sugar, beers that refresh the other parts.....
And then there is the trading standards issue. Like so much of H&S it's all a matter or interpretation, and probably not worth the worry. After all, greengrocers can sell red cabbage!
Caveat emptor
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Posted By Phil Rose
Ian - agreed. Most of us have seen it all before and aren't sucked in by it.
Carpe Cerveza!
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Yet again I say the law requires the display of the new poster but allows the old poster to be used where it has not become out of date in any way and the content remains legible, if not the new posters must be displayed. Where a new workplace is created or updated the employer must by law display the new poster its as simple as that. The only allowance is where the condition of the old poster remains unchanged the company may if it wants continue to display it until a material change occurrs or the five year timescale has expired. The advertising is not misleading, just doesn't say all the facts about the use of the now out of date posters.
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Posted By Bob Y
Will everyone just agree with Bob?!
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Posted By Ian Gardner
Nah, it's much more fun to make him repeat himself over and over...
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
The point is adverts don't get more sales unless they tell people they must do it, yes they must and the non compliance bit is strictly limit. If you meet the restrictions dont worryn take the five years if not you must comply, as simple as that.
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Posted By Swis
I didn't get that!
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Posted By Martin Mulholland
Great thread - I had a right laugh reading this one and didn't get worked up about it at all - usually I'm the one who is ready to be outraged at such dubious advertising behaviour!
However, for the small price to pay (relatively) if it elevates H&S on a Company's agenda - even for a small amount of time - then surely that is the desired result?
Keep up the good work
Marty
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Posted By Mike DF
Bob has said 'Where a new workplace is created or updated the employer must by law display the new poster' but I am not sure that this is correct.
I have seen nothing that says you can't re-use a sign in new premises.
This is a long thread for an item worth about £12 and, at best, would attract a verbal warning from an inspector :)
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Mike,
The law states that every empployer has to display (unles using individual notices) an approved poster in every workplace. The old one can continue to be used provided it is in good condition (already said that a number of times) but when putting up new notices they must conform to the current requirement. That implies the new poster.
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Posted By Bob Y
All of a sudden I feel so weary! New poster, old poster, mere compliance. Neither poster will make any significant difference to the management of health and safety and non display of any poster is likely to go unnoticed by the majority and if it is noticed, will attract little more than a ticking off or at worst an I.N.
Keep smiling :-)
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Posted By artisdeeian
It's Sell, Sell, Sell, hoping we will Buy,Buy,Buy. I say Bye Bye!
Ian.
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Posted By Phil Rose
I have now seen the advert, a copy was lurking in my 'in tray'. I personally didn't think that it was hugely misleading and in the grand scheme we do have to buy it at some point.
Bob s - please - I think you have made your point.
Thank crunchie tomorrow is Friday!
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Posted By Al..
Let me suggest a different tack on this poster business. Just ignore the whole thing. We haven't displayed the poster for many years at any of our sites. No one has noticed, no one has complained. We will not be displaying the new poster either. If we ever do get a complaint from the HSE then we will just go out a buy a few and stick them up. I guess that within a year they will have fallen down and no one will care!
This is what risk assessment is for. Likelihood of getting caught not displaying the poster is low. Consequences if you are caught are negligible. Overall risk is very low and therefore this is not something on which we intend to expend any effort. We have much more important things to do. And if the Chair of the HSE wants to walk the talk, I think that she should suggest to her colleagues that they do to.
As to the company trying to sell the poster by dubious means, I would recommend their removal from our approved suppliers list if I knew who they were. Perhaps one of you who does know who they are could direct their attention to this thread. It might concentrate their minds.
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Posted By Sharon
Well I bought the news ones and replaced the old ones with these....end of that for me.....
And I must say they do look better and have brought attention too!
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Posted By water67.
My issue is that this company sent out similar letters to all our establishments individually, result panic by managers calling us up. The supplier is fully aware that these will be replaced by us across all our properties as required, which isn't for several years hence. Of course anyone wishing to, can replace them now and I have no issue with that. i do have issue with this company being some what "economic" with the requirements and misleading people into thinking these are an immediate as opposed to "down the road" requirement. ok had my rant.
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Posted By STEPHEN81
It's been quite funny thinking how many here have had the same letter, well there goes another acre of the Amazon.
We've had two, one for me, one for my manager. Never used them before, very happy with my current supplier.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Just my last word on this it seems to be hard for some to see my point so why try??
The law states that the new posters must be displayed, however, the law allows wexisting posters to be used for up to five years IF they meet certain criteria, that is readable and contain valid information if they don't new ones must be posted end of my input to this futile posting.
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Posted By Lukasz
I received mentioned mail today as well.
Cover looks seriously with "legal action required", but, you still have written with small print "HSE state that old version of the poster must be replaced by 5th April 2014"
So maybe it is bit misleading, but at least they do not state as some companies that "PAT is legal requirement"
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Posted By Kate Gibb
Bob is not wrong - maybe he didn't express it clearly, but the following is copied and pasted from the very article (to save him posting again!)
"The Health and Safety Information for Employees Regulations allow businesses five years to switch to the new poster and pocket cards – they must be replaced by no later than 5 April 2014. Employers who choose to display the old poster after 6 April 2009 must make sure it is legible and keep the addresses of the enforcing authority and the employment medical advisory service up to date."
I doubt you will get a Notice for failing to display however! My advice would be to check the HSE RRP for these posters, and if you are buying from another company, ensure you don't pay any more. Alternatively for small businesses, download the free pocket cards from the HSE website and distribute one to each of your employees - simples!!!
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Posted By Gus
In view of the fact that HSE are funded by the taxpayer (business & individual) could someone please tell me why this poster ( and indeed all other HSE publications) cannot be downloaded for free ....?? as many other enforcing authorities around the globe seem to manage?
Gus
PS has anyone got any figures on how few ( note not how many) employees have ever read these things?
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