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Posted By Descarte
Having just completed the IOSH survey which I and others have probably missed (http://www.iosh.co.uk/index.cfm?go=news.item&id=938) the question was raised at the end "would you be in favour of the introduction of an upper temperature limit" where 30 Deg C was mentioned for office environs and 27 Deg C was for working under load, or wording similar to that effect.
Working in an industry which involves hot processes where maintenance and inspection activities may have to involve entry in to hot and/or confined spaces and where I believe awareness, assessment, management and controls are suitable and sufficient I would have to say no.
Does any one have any examples of work where they would see the benefit of an upper temperature limit, which cannot already be appropriately managed by the quite comprehensive guidance already around?
Des
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Posted By Juan Carlos Arias
limit on upper temperature? absolutely no chance. Working in an industrial bakery no matter what we do and the good systems already in place, temperature won't be anywhere 30 C. I am all in favour to reduce as much as possible.
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Posted By Yossarian
To be quite honest Des, no I can't, and I answered as much in the survey.
All I can forsee is business grinding to a halt every time the Mercury hits 30 deg C.
The existing guidance is quite good enough and already takes into account all the other factors such as relative humidity, heat stress of job, control measures etc.
Plus, if it's above 30 deg C outside the enforcers would be breaking the law by investigating. ;-)
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Posted By FAH
I have to agree wholeheartedly with you Descartes.
Not only are there far too many work processes & activities where it will be almost impossible to reduce the ambient temperature anywhere near the "suggested" limits [watch out - they weren't suggested for your amusement!]; as usual the underlying thought processes are totally flawed!!!
In my view there are 2 very serious, but disparate, flaws to the max ambient temp concept - they also apply to the min temp concept incidentally.
Anyone who knows anything about welding in the steel fabrication industry will know exactly what what I mean.
The real issue to address isn't the ambient temperature - it's the core AND surface temperatures of the individual that really matter!
And
I see this as yet another of the steps along the road to re-creating the prescriptive regimes that the HSWA & EU Directives approach were created to remove.
Prescriptive rules with specified objective limits that are applied "blanket" fashion simply don't work well!
In the spirit of the history lesson taking place on a parallel thread; may I ask all who favour such over-arching prescriptive rules to consider one of the top 3 reasons why the HSWA was created? Quite simply, whilst a rule [eg Factories Act S14] was very relevant in some cases [ie fixed machinery]; that rule simply didn't work at all for wood-working machinery or angle-grinders!!! Consequently, we then had illegal working until the relevant topic specific Regulations were brought in to close the gap. However, this then left other similar work equipment uncovered [strimmers, hedge-cutters & etc ad nauseum].
Don't allow this to creep in through the back-door 'cos of inertia!
Frank Hallett
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Posted By Colin Reeves
Frank
"I see this as yet another of the steps along the road to re-creating the prescriptive regimes that the HSWA & EU Directives approach were created to remove."
I tend to disagree. Agree wholeheartedly with HASWA, but the EU in my industry (marine) have always been prescriptive, never using the risk assessment process used under HASWA.
Colin
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Posted By Andrew Murdy
It's 35 outside. If we had to stop work at 30 we'd have 4 months off each year!
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Posted By Colin Reeves
Ahh, here we rarely excceed 22 degrees so will never get time off!! About 15 today.
Colin (Shetland)
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Posted By FAH
OK Colin - no real disagreement there. I'm quite happy to be corrected.
However, that doesn't minimise the real point - the more prescriptive, and consequently less goal-setting, legislation is; the harder it is to apply effectively outside of the topic that was considered "core" to the legislation.
I've just thought of another rubbish concept in legislation - The Dangerous Dogs Act! Whilst all dogs CAN be dangerous [and many actually are], only those few breeds specified attract specific controls & penalties. This has led to a number of owners of these specified breeds going to great lengths [& expense in paying legal representation] in defending their ownership by attempting to get the dog re-classified as "not quite" the breed specified.
Frank Hallett
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
There is so much more to thermal comfort than temperature so any limit is bound to be unsatisfactory in a wide range of working environments.
Paul
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Posted By Yossarian
Good point Frank.
Plus if we go prescriptive, then there is no incentive for businesses with processes operating at 29 deg C to lower workplace levels to reasonable temperatures.
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Posted By Descarte
Good point Paul, temperature is only one of many different factors which need to be taken in to account. Environmental factors such as humidity, air movement, radiant heat sources; Managerial factors such as work : rest ratios, job rotation, provision of cool rest places, provision of drinking water; Human factors such as gender, age, work rate, ppe, metabolic rate, fitness, acclimitisation and many others mean a simple "the thermometer says 27 im off home" impact this would likely incur are not acceptable.
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Posted By Chris Packham
On a slightly frivolous note, I worked for three and a half years in the Libyan desert. If there had been a maximum temperature limit of, say, 30 deg C, I would have been off work for at least 8 months of the year! (Not sure where I would have gone though as we did not have air conditioning for much of the time.)
OK - frivolous perhaps, but neither I nor my colleagues seemed to come to any real harm.
Chris
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Posted By Bob Youel
there is nothing wrong with a max temp range its just making it fit for purpose and sensible and 30 in an average office is too high for most
In this day and age cooling and heating in many workplaces is not hard to control all we need is some effort & committment
Time and again I have been in air conditioned directors offices with their new Merc outside were they say that cannot afford the same system in the adjoining office!
Bring back the good old days: I worked on cross country pipelines where your back was exposed to below zero temps and your front was exposed to 3000C! All at the same time!
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Posted By martinw
For those of you well travelled during your H&S careers, have you come across any maximum working temperatures? I seem to remember(may be an urban myth) that there is a maximum office or workplace temperature in Australia(hot country) but no minimum, and conversely there is no maximum here in the UK(cold country) but that there is a minimum of sorts. Ring any bells or did I make it all up?
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Posted By Chris Packham
As an addendum to my last posting and in agreement with Paul, in Libya I worked at the coast, where humidity was high. I often visited the interior where the temperature could be 5 to ten degrees higher but where the humidity was very low. It was far more comfortable in the interior!
Temperature on its own is not, in my view, what we should be concerned about, but try to look at the whole picture.
Chris
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