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Posted By alex mccreadie Suggestions for dealing with this ludicrous decision.
Company attended site to erect a Tower Crane.
On the Site Induction informed of PPE that must be worn at all times.
Part of this was safety glasses.
Not a problem our Operatives have all PPE that may be required.
It starts to rain but still safe to carry on with the Installation. Problem is the glasses keep getting covered with rain drops making vision very difficult. Our Technical Manager on site approaches PC who refuses to go against company policy. After much debate where our TM Risk Assessed that it was safer without glasses PC would still not compromise.
Only decision was then to postpone installation at tremendous cost.(Remember how difficult it is to recover money from PCs in this climate.)
This is another case of Safety stupidity and I was saddened when informed that it was a CMIOSH who refused to use common sense.
Yes I will be visiting site to discuss, although I feel probably wasting my time.
Therefore non violent suggestions welcomed.
Regards Alex
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Posted By Bob Youel PC was wrong - as usual its easier to blanket than manage
The time to agree protocol is at the T&C stages not when a job is ongoing
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Posted By Dave Merchant As a spectacle-wearing caver I appreciate the problem - but if someone did manage to injure their eyes on your site (however unlikely that might be) you'd have no legal leg to stand on. That's what drives the policy, not how awkward it might be.
Personally I use Rain-X on the lenses (the stuff you put on car windscreens) but it's not suitable for plastic safety glasses as it can make them brittle, so HSE would shout at you for it. Clean and unscratched surfaces obviously work better as the water stays in droplets and can be shaken off, but it may end up being a case of wearing peaked caps and carrying a hanky.
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Posted By John Fraser
This is certainly an example where not much common sense has been applied on site by the pc.
Agree with the above post this should have been discussed at pre-construction stage of the project to identify any factors which would affect PPE. i.e Inclement weather etc and how the pc and appointed s/c deal with the issues.
I don't know if you can do much more unfortunately though if you are contracted to work to the pc. Is there a clause in the contract to recover costs regarding tower erection / dismantling phase from the pc or client.
John
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Posted By Neil R Normally the blanket wearing policy, means that it must be worn unless the wearing creates a hazard greater than what it is protecting against, thats how ours works anyway.
If you carry out a risk assessment which determines this then there should have been no problem.
Suggest you raise the issue in a detailed report, thats normally how things get done in the land of the PC
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Posted By Andrew W Had exactly the same myself many times. Luckily now as stated above we clear it all up at pre meetings and lay our justifications at that stage.
Andy
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Posted By Raymond Rapp Mandatory PPE is an issue that i have commented on previously. I do give 'special' dispensations and if it becomes more of a risk than wearing it, then clearly it should not be worn. That said, exceptions are few and far between.
An example when we had some tarmacking done. The Client agreed in advance that they need not wear light eye protection because of them steaming up with the heat. Some sensible management of health and safety is needed at times.
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Posted By alex mccreadie I know there will be more but thanks for the many varied suggestions,opinions and possible solutions.
Much Appreciated
Alex
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Posted By Peter F. We seem to come across this fairly often these days, you would have to question if the risk assessments are task specific or generic.
I recently read a risk assessment and asked the person to comply, they were moving roofing materials from the ground level, but there risk assessment stated when clearing roofing debris PPE must be worn and the list included amongst other items hard hats, harness, high viz clothing and also stated what wind speed they could work in. It was obvious that this was meant when working at height, but I made them put it on until they gave me a task specific assessment.
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Posted By Andrew W The other problem I have with blanket PPE policies is that that is all people seem to concentrate on whilst ignoring far more serious events.
Case in fact; once whilst on a site I witnessed the PC's safety advisor remonstrating with a worker for not wearing his glasses whilst directly adjacent a 20t 360 excavator was loading a dumper with rubble. However the driver was still mounted on his seat watching. I know which risk I would be more concerned with. Needless to say I had a quiet word out of earshot
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Posted By Chris Packham Remember that it is a legal requirement that PPE should not increase the risk of damage to the user. I think that in the case described the loss of vision might be construed as a greater risk than not wearing the safety glasses. This is always one of the problems with 'blanket' requirements for PPE. They cannot allow for individual situations and can result in increased risk.
Chris
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Posted By Raymond Rapp Indeed Chris, that's why I generally don't like the use of blanket PPE, which normally emanates from company policies designed by men in ivory towers.
I suppose we will have to wait for a serious accident to occur where upon investigation it be shown that the mandatory PPE policy was at fault before anything changes.
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Posted By Andrew Borland How would you deal with this problem if your operative was required to wear optical glasses to be able to see what he/she was doing?
You would not be able to ask him not to wear them because of the rain.
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Posted By Chris Packham I have worn prescription lenses for the past 64 years. It can be a problem but in time one learns to compensate. I can well imagine that someone not used to it could find it difficult.
I often wear a long peaked baseball cap to keep the rain off my specs, but even this has its problems as it can restrict visibility, particularly when considering what is happening above one.
I even tried contact lenses, but because I have a considerable difference between near and distance vision these did not help and actually made me accident prone.
Often there are not any simple answers and one is looking for the best possible compromise.
Chris
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Posted By John J Blanket PPE programs are generally introduced for perceived ease of enforcement. I recently went through an exercise of reviewing a plant which has a mandatory hard hat policy throughout. By speaking to each shift safety rep we identified that most areas would remain as they were due to risk of their members not wearing it when they should (if you climbed 3 flights of stairs, forgot your hat, and needed to nip into an area for a five minutes are you going back for it?). Other areas where no risk was present and they could be clearly defined were removed from the requirement. The understanding is that should there be any none compliance its back to square 1. Another aspect to consider in areas where you have had a long term blanket requirement is 'Have you got the courage to reduce the protection your employees/union members currently have'? - its not as easy as it may sound,
John
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Posted By Jim Tassell (2) Roll back a minute please. Can you all explain exactly what the actual risk to the eyes is in this particular example? I read the exchanges with interest but I've never been intimately involved in tower crane erection.
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Posted By alex mccreadie Jim
It was a blanket PPE no identified risk just a company policy.
Alex
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Posted By Jim Tassell (2) Thanks Alex
I was just wondering if any of the other contributors could move the discussion away from "patently silly rule" so as to provide real justification that there is indeed a risk.
Jim
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Posted By Peter Moran As irritating as these blanket rules are they do protect against unseen events. It is a little frustrating however when they are installed with no retrospective incidents having taken place.
Blanket LEP PPE wear is always more difficult to get ops to buy into as it is so personal an item and close to the eyes which your typical spectacle wearer is not accustomed to. Employers can help though by ensuring that they supply the best LEP available and not just throw the firat pair they see in the catalogue at the workforce. Trials of various models and the canvassing of views are essential. Complaints about wear can be reduced by ensuring the issues have anti-mist,anti-fog and anti scratch coatings. Issuing tinted varieties during the summer months is often a good ploy as everyone wants to look 'cool'.
Relaxations are necessary especially under inclement conditions but many PCs often don't want to allow their supervisors to be able to exercise their judgement. On sites where these relaxations exist the workforce often have more respect for the general blanket ruling.
Another thread on blanket wear exists if you type Motorway and Helmets into the search tool.
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Posted By Jim Tassell (2) Peter
I think you are getting to the nub of this (setting aside your pun) in your first sentence. It's the protection against the unknown, the one in a million (a vague hazard not a clear and present risk).
I agree with you completely that any PPE needs proper selection and roll-out but let's not treat our employees like numpties. They may not understand our terminology but they certainly know when something is being done without a basis of risk assessment. The blanket control may be easy and seem to give protection against infinitessimal risks but it devalues the concept of risk assessment from the perspective of the wearers. It moves us away from the opportunity to take a rational approach to the control of real and substantial risks and expect employee buy-in. Dare I say it heads us in the direction of conkers-bonkers and management by J*DI?
So who out there can explain what the real risks are as opposed to comfort-zone and sky-falling-on-head reasons?
Jim
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Posted By Raymond Rapp Well said Jim.
A blanket rule for hard hats is a very different concept to say safety glasses. Why, oh why, do painters need to wear safety glasses? If 'elf and safety is to get some respect then we must stop treating workers like children.
At the risk of sounding cynical, I suspect the driver for mandatory PPE is this obsession with AFRs, IFRS, RIDDORs and alike and very little to do the protection of the workforce.
Ray
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Posted By Pete48 Some strange logic in this thread. For me the fact that there is a rule that eye protection is to be worn is a rule. Now that rule may be wrong but it is there. If the rule is wrong it is wrong and the sector needs to get that approach sorted. It rains a lot in the UK so it is foreseeable. If indeed it is not possible to work safely with eye protection on this task during the rain then the job stops, simple. OR the rule gets changed to one where ppe is defined by the task and environment in which it takes place; suitable, effective and usable ppe is provided and not the lowest cost kit; an adequate level of positive, trained, competent supervision is provided to assure compliance. Of course these approaches will cost money somewhere and I doubt that contingency for all such costs is anywhere in most bid prices. The job was priced in the knowledge that the blanket rule applied but didn't consider this impact of a rainy day? Maybe that is the underlying cause of these continuing problems in the open market construction sector. As Chris pointed out those of us who wear prescription specs find ways to reduce the problems or modify our working practice. There is always something that can be done to reduce the problem. What happens, for example, if an employee did habitually wear prescription glasses in an area where there was not a blanket rule? Does your risk assessment consider that and what does it say? Does that employee have to stop work when it rains or does that employee have to take the risks that you now consider unacceptable to others? I wonder has there ever been a case where a site occupier/controller has insisted on the wearing of inappropriate ppe and an accident or injury has resulted?
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Posted By Chris Packham Pete
The answer to your last question is 'yes', but perhaps not in the way you imagine.
Blanket wearing of certain PPE, e.g. hard hats, may be a possibility. However, on many construction sites chemicals will be present. Blanket wearing of PPE as protection against chemicals is not, in my view, a possibility.
For example, there is no one glove that offers protection against all the different chemicals that will be found on the average construction site. The glove that will protect against one chemical will let another permeate quickly and thus increase the risk of damage to health of the user. Furthermore, performance of the glove will depend upon many other factors, e.g. degradation, temperature, flexing, etc. Selection and use of gloves as protection against chemicals is actually far more complex than many realise. In 'Protectice Gloves for Occupational Use' (Boman, Estlander, Wahlberg, Maibach - eds., CRC Press) the chapter on this covers 30 pages and is still, in my view, not comprehensive.
So a blanket order that gloves will be worn could actually result in an increased risk of damage to health. I have encountered situations where this has happened.
Chris
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