Posted By D. Hilton
I think it is reasonable for the local authority to require the RP to make suitable preparations for the evacuation of the residents.

Surely the response personnel would be required to confirm the fire in the first instance (visually by entry unless the door indicates otherwise)and to take the appropriate action thereafter? (Assist evacuation, extinguish fire or assist evacuation and close door to the room).

Posted By Messy Shaw
I have to go with D Hilton on this one. There is some risk (but within acceptable limits) for a trained member of staff to ascertain whether there is a fire behind a door - whether it's a fire door or not.

It ain't rocket science. If there's any smell or heat, it's a walk away situation. I would be very surprised whether a bottled up fire (with a risk of backdraft) would ever not show any signs on the other side of a fire door - even a well fitting one with seals.

Training is key. the other option of not checking puts fire crews at risk, disturbs the operation of the unit, and is ludicrous. By the way, fire crews would not necessarily don in BA when checking a door without further signs of fire. Not in my 32 years in the fire service (15 of them in charge of a watch)

It's simple really. The RP evacuates and the fire service rescue. I really cannot be doing with this frightened rabbit syndrome of not training care staff to investigate.

Posted By Richard Hammer
Do you have a horizontal evacuation strategy in place??.

As with other working environments the initial fire alarm activation will be investigated to attain if false/real fire situation. At this stage you will be only concerned with the possible 5 or so people within this area (2 fire doors as separation) and other appropriate passive fire measures to ensure horizontal evacuation can be done.

If a real fire is identified (L1 Addressable, possible ignition sources in room, response time from staff all should be risk based and taken into account) staff members if safe to do so evacuate person and close door, providing critical time (FD30s) get the others to a place of 'reasonable' safety. Obviously if fire develops further, then there must be a method to evacuate residents further away.

In buildings with not so great passive fire protection, detailed evacuation strategy, then this will hopefully be highlighted in FRA or visit by fire officer. And if it is really bad, then close it down until it is rectified.

Obviously detailed evacuation plan, training, fire drills and most importantly communicating with local fire service will ensure this is the most appropriate method for such an environment.

Posted By D. Hilton
Finlay,
As a working fire engineer I would suggest that the fire door in the scenario discussed would be more than likely a FD 30 door. WRT "The laws of Physics" one would expect heat transfer to take place through the door handle via conduction and yes a fully developed non flashover or flash over fire would have a HRR to provide some evidence of heat transfer to the outer side of the door. But in reality in the fire growth scenario in question, it is more likely that the a smouldering fire or at most a non flash over flaming fire would be present within the compartment.

At the end of the day, the care home should provide sufficient training and equipment to enable staff to identify the area of suspected fire, to safely confirm fire scenario and effect a rescue where reasonable and appropriate to do so.

It would also be reasonable to expect the management to have in place the means to carry out a progressive horizontal evacuation making the total evacuation to a place of ultimate safety unecessary in the scenario offered.

Regards

D

Posted By shaun mckeever
The fear that seems to be expressed here is that staff will be putting themselves at risk by entering a room where a fire is suspected to rescue the occupants of the room. It seems that the thought is that the fire and smoke may injure or kill the would be rescuers so best wait another five or ten minutes for the fire service to turn up at which time, if the fire is as serious as believed, the occupants of the room will most certainly be toasted.

The purpose of having an L1 detection system is to detect the fire in sufficient time to enable occupants to move (or be moved) to a place of relative safety. If the procedures are not in place to enable that to happen then the procedures need to be reviewed. In reality the majority of fires in care homes do not develop so rapidly that where an L1 detection system is fitted there is not sufficient time to move occupants to a place of safety. The problems occur in poorly managed buildings and/or where there may be a lesser standard of fire detection.

Posted By Richard Hammer
As with the previous 2 post's common sense and a risk assess approach prevails.

Posted By Finlay McGuire
Have worked in many residential settings for toooo many years, as a "bloke" in environment where females are numerically dominant I was often the one sent into roof spaces etc, usually to store the increasing paperwork that has got to be archived, never encountered an L1 system in my life, usually L3, L2 at best.


Trained Fire warden -

(THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK) there is a discussion on here from someone who can offer training asking how to then test competence. Would you take driving lessons from someone who said "yea I can teach you to drive, might not pass your test though, not sure what knowledge you will be required to demonstrate.


Who exactly is the RP. and more on training -

I've been a manager for nearly twenty years,
a.) I've had one day fire safety training, even that was by default rather than design (it was meant to be a general intro to H&S for managers in care sector, trainer did quick "round the room" to establish previous knowledge and decided best use of time was to focus on fire safety)
b.) There is not always a manager on site

"trained member of staff to ascertain whether there is a fire behind a door" -

will say again - "Had a problem with oversensitive smoke alarms .. years ago. Brigade were getting fed up with number of calls ... was suggested that when alarm was activated a support worker would go to investigate, establish if an actual fire event or a false alarm ... then make decision as to whether to call 999. The local brigade were fine with this till asked to sign ... not a chance was the reply if anything goes wrong I could be held responsible."

"in all probability the fire could be extinguished simultaneously" - and even more on training--

in probably nearer thirty years (on and off) now, don't think I've met more than one or two folk (and that's being generous) who've had hands on practical training with portable fire fighting equipment. I certainly haven't. Staff training in this regard is myself or another manager checking new workers know which colour extinguisher goes with which type of fire.
Though I always make a point of passing on what I was told in response to the obvious "why not just have powder, if that can be used on everything?" "Cause it only lasts 20 seconds". My advice, if an amateur thinks they need special equipment rather than a damp dish cloth or water from a flower vase, fire is probably developed beyond their competence to tackle.

Not sure about nursing homes, but organisation I work for now only PATs appliances it owns, mainly white goods, TVs DVD players, hair dryers and etc don't get done.

Posted By Finlay McGuire
Ah nothing like emotional blackmail, but prosaic to the last I would rather make anyone, even myself, an orphan before doing so to my kids!!

Posted By Finlay McGuire
Martin

think if you read all posts you'll see that I both listen and give some consideration, though still see a need for brevity and levity at times.

Though fear that we are drifting from the main crux of the debate, contrast and compare

"the local fire authority to require care staff" and
"We basically inform staff to evacuate (or initiate evacuation) when it is safe to do so. .One point I do stress at training is that it is up to an individual to decide when it is safe to do so"