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Posted By Darren Crossman
I have a requirement to construct a mess room (lunch room) for three engineers (maximum at any one time) who will use it. I have provided lighting, heat, drinking water, hot water, a fridge and a microwave as well as a table and chairs. In the room next door is a changing room with fit for purpose lockers.
Unfortunately the room is quite small and I wondered if there was any minimum size requirement?
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Posted By safetyamateur
Darren, can they actually get in/out the room, sit down and eat comfortably?
If so, I reckon you've cracked it.
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Posted By Darren Crossman
no problem with that, plenty of room.
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Posted By D. Hilton
But have you now created an inner room?
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Posted By CSL
Perhaps you might also consider chairs with backs, water other than drinking water, first aid, waste bin, washup basin and cupboard to house cleaning materials and lastly ventilation ...
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Posted By D. Hilton
Means of escape, warning of fire in adjoining room ya da ya da ya da
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Posted By CSL
Darren on hindsight you are correct ... what about fire detection/smoke detection, fire equipment etc ... there was a door leading somewhere!
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Posted By D. Hilton
Chas
there was but an inner room may well have been created without an alternative means of escape necessitating a clear vision panel or modification to the fire detection and means of alarm regardless of the door leading to somewhere
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Posted By CSL
... room with a view
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Posted By D. Hilton
maybe not shall we calculate possible smoke obscuration
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Posted By D H
Darren - why not post the measurements?
Dave
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Posted By D. Hilton
DH
We do not have enough data i.e. room dimensions, opening etc.
However, in a hypothetical fire scenario involving modest HRR of 130 kW in the adjoining locker area of ceiling height 2.4 m and floor area of 12 m2 with leakage around and under a single door, the time taken until smoke has filled the room from ceiling to a height of 1.2 m is 15.3 seconds.
Calculated as follows:
Dimensionless HRR (Q dot asterix)
Q.* = Q dot (HRR)/density air x Heat capacity x Amb temperature x Sqrt (gravity x room height ^2.5)
density 1.2 kg/m3, cp 1.0 kJ/kgK, Tamb 293 K, gravity 9.81 m/s2
Therefore Q.* = 0.019
Dimensionless height (y) = height of enclosure /height of interest i.e. 2.4/1.2 m = 0.5
Dimensionless time (tau)=
Factor (Q.*)1/3 tau (approximately 4) and so tau is calculated as 4/0.019^1/3
tau = 14.9
The time taken to fill the compartment from ceiling down to 1.2 metres is calculated from
tau = time x Sqrt gravity/ height of enclosure x height of enclosure ^2 /enclosure surface area
= 0.97
Solving for t (time)
14.9/0.97 = 15.3 seconds
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Posted By D. Hilton
Hence the requirement for an alternative means of escape from the new inner room or means of detection, alarm and clear vision panel so as to enable the room occupants with some means of escape.
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Posted By D H
All good stuff Darren H - but the question asked was is there a minimum legal requirement.
Your calculations would only apply IMHO on a room used with full time occupancy - not as a lunch break / changing room.
Darren C - if there is enough room to move about safely and easy enough exit in case of fire I think you should be OK.You only mentioned 3 people.
I know some companies who use Portacabins for this purpose and seen up to 20 people per cabin.
Dave
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Posted By D. Hilton
Dave,
The original post was with regard to welfare arrangements.
Notwithstanding the welfare issue, there is a fire safety aspect to using the new area as a canteen/restroom facility.
If there is not an immediate and alternative means of escape from the new rest room then the personnel in question will be required to travel through the adjoining "ACCESS ROOM" in order to escape from fire. The new rest room/canteen or whatever without an alternative means of escape will now be defined as an "INNER ROOM" and as such the requirements of the Building Regs will have to be satisfied.
i.e.
the escape route from the inner room should
not pass through more than one outer (access)
room;
the travel distance from any point in the inner
room to the exit(s) from the access room
should not exceed the appropriate limit.
the access room should not be a place of special fire risk and it should be in the control of the same occupier; and
the enclosures (walls or partitions) of the
inner room are stopped at least 500 mm
below the ceiling, or a vision panel is located in the enclosure of the inner room, of sufficient size, to enable occupants of the inner room to see if a fire
has started in the outer room, or the access room is fitted with a suitable fire detection and alarm system to warn the occupants of the inner room should an outbreak of fire occur in the access room.
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Posted By D. Hilton
Dave
The temporary or continuous occupancy is irrelevant. In addition, the portacabins are not inner rooms.
A modest fire in the access room would result in smoke obscuration down to 2 metres and from ceiling height down to 1.2 m in 15 seconds.
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Posted By Phil Rose
OMG - and it seemed like such an innocuous question to start with!
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Posted By D. Hilton
Regardless, the site FRA should e revised to tic inner room/access room situation.But then again, how many times have we been told that "you do not have to be competent" to carry out a FRA?
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Posted By D. Hilton
Thats elf n safety Phil
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Posted By martinw
Regardless of the disagreements, D Hilton, I had not have to deal with those calculations before(the areas I deal with are all common areas outside of the dwellings).
I now know more than I did before I read your post, and thanks for that.
Martin
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Posted By D. Hilton
always glad to help
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Posted By Darren Crossman
The measurement of the room is 4.2 metres x 2.1 metres, it has a door with a vision panel, which leads straight into the main corridor with fire exits at either end, there is ventillation in the room and a maximum of three persons at any one time will be using the room.
Thanks to all who have replied
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Posted By Darren Crossman
Another question that has arisen,
Is there any requorement to provide additional facilities in the way of a conventional cooker over a microwave to heat food for those with special dietary requirements e.g. diabeties?
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Posted By Jay Joshi Refer to Workplace health, safety and welfare. Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 (as amended by the Quarries Miscellaneous Health and Safety Provisions Regulations 1995).Approved Code of Practice and guidance, now freely available on the HSE Book website as a PDF download-link below http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l24.pdfIt provides guidance on Maintenance of the workplace, equipment, devices and systems; Ventilation; Temperature; Lighting; Cleanliness; Room dimensions; Workstations and seating; Floors; Falls or falling objects; Transparent and translucent doors, gates and walls; Windows, skylights and ventilators; Traffic routes; Escalators; Sanitary conveniences; Washing facilities.
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