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Posted By Ian Mitchell
All
This is aimed at those with a detailed working knowledge of CDM and/ or H&S Law. Please, no well- meaning advice from fellow practitioners with a general knowledge!!
1) Individual 'A' buys a new property manufactured by a well- known developer 'B'.
Property is domestic dwelling.
2) Individual 'A' notices a significant issue with ongoing maintenance of the property. A juliette balcony window cannot be cleaned from the inside or outside as it is a sliding unit with an iron railing. Individual 'A' suggests Designers have failed in their duties under Reg 11(3)(c) somewhat!
3) Developer argues 'of course it can!' and send generic window cleaning RAMS to individual 'A'.
4) Individual 'A' being a practitioner of H&S (lol) tears the RAMS apart and returns it (figuratively, not literally of course).
5)Developer 'B' backtracks and instead sends defensive and negative letter basically citing reg 45 that prohibits civil liability.
I am not happy that I can now not clean my own window (or employ someone to do so) and nobody is accountable!
Any pointers? I will elaborate any details if you need them (apart from Developer's name).
Thanks, ian
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Posted By Val Ives
Dear Ian
The glass is obviously self-cleaning
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Posted By Ian Mitchell
No, Val. It is not.
Otherwise, why would the developer bother to go through the faff of contacting their cleaning contractor etc. The developer should have sight of any such information on the specification if that was true.
PS if it is self- cleaning then it is not working.
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Posted By Phil Rose
Ian - I am sure that this is 'annoying' to say the least, but I can't help but feel that you may need to try another route of redress rather than your current approach under the CDM designer duties.
I am not sure of the best way forward, but perhaps seek advice from building control, NHBC, Zurich or whoever has guaranteed the work.
I re ally aren't sure if trying under CDM is going to be all that useful
My window cleaner uses a clear water system with a long reach pole etc - just a thought
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Posted By Ronald Weir
The fact that window cannot be cleaned isnt a CDM issue as i see it. CDM considers whether the post construction design can be cleaned safely or not and since no one is at risk because it cant be cleaned there are no H&S implications in this scenario you have painted. The aesthetics of having dirty windows is another issue.
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Posted By Southerner
How high up is said window? Can it not be accessed by (god forbid)a ladder?
If the contractor wanted to be particularly awkward they could just claim that the cleaning and access strategy is via mobile access equipment. (Only if that is actually possible I guess, but the access equipment is available for nearly everywhere now)
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Posted By Val Ives
Dear Ian
Thinking about this one, window cleaning isn't the job it used to be; most window cleaners clean with the clear water system via long poles as mentioned by Phil so there isn't a major problem in actual fact. It's very interesting though that a designer worth his salt could actually put a window in such an inaccessible position that wasn't cleanable from the inside, also that the developer didn't spot it beforehand. Nothing worse than dirty windows...
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Posted By Ian Mitchell
Hi Val/ All
It is four storeys up. The balcony prohibits access with the long pole method i.e. it cannot get to the bottom 60% of the window. At floor level, the ground is a rough embankment, private property and inaccessible except by foot. Expensive access equipment is not reasonably practicable.
All these things were trumpeted on the generic cleaning RAMS, and were discounted for the reasons above. Hence, the RAMS was retracted when I questioned it.
I don't see how just because a project is finished, any omissions by a party under CDM can simply be forgotten! Otherwise, why even follow the design risk process in the first place?
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Posted By Ian Mitchell
Hi Ronald
Can you reword your answer as (unless I am being a bit thick) it says that 'if nobody cleans the window then nobody is at risk' so therefore there is no need to apply 11(3)(c)!!
Surely, if the window needs cleaning (it does) and it cannot be cleaned safely (it can't) then there is a danger and a breach of the process?
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Presumably a two part sliding unit, the gap between the railing and the unit being insufficient to allow access for an arm, or at least a medium length handled squeegee.
I wonder if the final build is actually completed as the designer intended, or if some dimensional error has crept in? i.e. this might not be the "fault" of the Designer.
I do agree that the CDM tack is unlikely to work for you. Civil redress (fitness for purpose) is a more likely (but costly) avenue.
A call to the LA Planning & Building Control office should be worthwhile. Don't the Building Regulations talk about efficacy of cleaning at high level?
Of course if you've purchased the house, I would have to assume that the LA has already issued the completion certificate to the developer...........?!!
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Posted By Ian Mitchell
Hi Ron.
Spot on with the description. Also of course, even if the gap between the window and the balcony railings was wider, as soon as you open the sliding part, it obscures the static part! If the sliding part was the inner face, it wouldn't be an issue so much. (The sliding part is the outer face).
The argument that, because I did not question it at purchase (one of the developer's arguments) seems a little unrealistic because, as a domestic purchaser, I would not foreseeably be aware of the potential.
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Posted By Andrew Meiklejohn
Ian,
I would agree with Ron.
Building control would be your best bet. Unfortunately, I have some experience with this.
Bulding control may have not had time to have a very close look at the standard of construction and wether or not it met the specified plans, and just signed it off.
Issues included - broken windows, skews not watertight or actually attached to the roof.
Field drains broken. appliance isolation switches not accessible, windows not opening, roof insulation not laid, and underfloor heating system incorrectly set up.
You have more rights when you buy a mars bar than you do when you buy a house.
Unless you cant get a lwayer to take your case on pro bono you are probably wasting your time.
I don't know if I would probably go after building control for giving the completion cert, or the builders - councils don't tend to go bankrupt very quickly.
Good luck!
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Posted By Andrew Cartridge
Ian
When you had your "Home Demonstration" did they explain to you how you were supposed to clean you sliding windows?
Regards
Andy
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Have a look at who did your valuation (survey) report and did they identify that this windows could not be cleaned?
If your property was a HA owned one then the CDM regs would apply through the information required for the H&S File, however in your case these regulations (at this stage) are far too remote.
I don't have a great deal knowledge in relation consumer protection and I suspect that I am wrong, however how about the Sale of Goods act?
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Posted By Paul I Clark
Ian,
Very sad to hear of your problem, but it’s more sad to hear you trying to play the health and safety ‘trump’ card. As a profession we should be steering away from such tactics and what we are taking of here is an uncleanable window by easy means. Hardly a hidden killer.
So suggest with everyone else you pursue this as a civil claim as the window is not fit for purpose. Maybe get a quote to have it replaced for one that can be clean internally and chase this through the small claims court.
Having said that, I do fully understand your wider argument and it is a very good point. I guess the only time the HSE will become involved when considering CDM post construction is when your window cleaner falls off his ladder using the said RAMS provided in your home pack.
Good to see again the CDM-C was on the ball, they should be reported to the APS or whoever and given a hearing, as should the designer with their insistution. Of course, never going to happen!
Nice clause reg 45, well thought out by CIC to protect the industry.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
I had assumed that both halves would slide! Basically cr*p window then?
Don't Planning and Building Control have an enforcement role here?
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Posted By Ian Blenkharn
Caveat emptor
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
Not addressing the CDM issues but a possible practical solution to your problem.
The other day whilst scrolling through the TV channels to find the Touring Cars I saw a woman demonstrate a window cleaning system that was held magnetically to the outside of the window.
It appeared to be one device on the outside and one on the inside (Held by magnets) with a tether to prevent the outer one falling to the ground.
As the inside cleaner was moved the outer one followed. Seemed to clean OK but like all TV demonstrations probably looked better than it is.
Just a thought
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Posted By Ian Blenkharn
Tried that on a previous London home, where window cleaners are as rare as hen's teeth - it doesn't work as the magnets are insufficient for all but the thinest single pane of glass
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Hmmm...the Moderators would appear to be very robust in dealing with slightly naughty use of language!
My "moderated" post (above) suggested that the window in question may be somewhat "substandard".
I also suggested that LA Planning and Building Control have enforcement powers in this regard?
A formal letter of the complaint to the Head of that Department (or even the LA Chief Executive)should illicit a response.
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Posted By Swis
Ron - Behave.... i'm noticing that you've started mishaving lately... ;-)
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Posted By Phil Rose
I would have thought that an ENQUIRY to Building Control to establish the 'lie of the land' would be the best way to look at things rather than a complaint to either them of the CE.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Absolutely, Phil. I discussed an initial call to the LA above, and envisioned an "escalation" response in my last post.
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Posted By Pete48 Ian, have you actually checked whether it was specified as self cleaning glass? You say no to this question earlier in the thread but do not actually confirm that you have checked. To specify such glass would seem a sensible design choice given the brief outline you have given us and much more likely than a simple design error/oversight in my view. If it was specified, has it been installed correctly? Is it to spec? There is an obviously easier fault route there than some design oversight or lack of care. In case you have not checked out the info re self cleaning glass this link takes you to one manufacturer of this type of glass. (usual disclaimer given). http://www.pilkingtonsel....co.uk/pilkington-activ/If this is a block of apartments does everyone else have the problem? Might help with any case you pursue. I agree with those who say that the CDM route is unlikely to succeed. It could but it is tenuous and anyone involved in construction will be very well versed in the paper chase approach and that means time and money to follow it through. Good luck whichever route you choose.
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Posted By Andy Petrie
I had a similar problem in a flat with a sliding half door and a juliette, meaning you couldn't clean part of the glass on the door.
You'll probably find that the sliding door lifts out of the frame, as when it is not locked it is just on runners, you may need a hand to lift it but I used to be able to manage mine OK and give it a clean every few months.
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Posted By Paul I Clark
I thought this was a forum to discuss health and safety, guess I stumbled on SOS DIY by mistake. Tempted to pose a question on plumbing if this tread stays.
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Posted By Andy Petrie
Paul, while I could have discussed the finer points of CDM I thought a habdy tip to help him clean his windows would have been more appreciated.
Now, what's up with your pipes...
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Posted By Ian Mitchell
All
You have given me some pertinent advice and I appreciate it. The only reason I went down the H&S route initially was because it was the route I knew best!!
Paul - if you do not like the thread, there are plenty of better ones to keep you entertained!
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Posted By Ian Mitchell
PS Andy P,
The sliding door is the outer face, and so even if it could be lifted out, it would be from the outside!
As discussed with Ron H, if it was the inner face I wouldn't have needed the conversation!
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