Posted By Raymond Rapp
Martin

In principle you are correct. When vehicles are left by the operator they should be fully secured, switched off and with the keys removed. However in practice this may not be so practical for some tasks. For instance, an excavator driver changing quick hitch buckets (manual), which requires he get out of the cab, check the bucket is properly located and fit the locking bar and safety pin. He could do this operation many times during the working day.

So, perhaps a degree of sensibility is needed with the stricture.

Ray

Posted By Mike J Smith
Having driven trucks, as long as the gearing is in neutral (or park if an auto box) and the parking brake is applied it's not going to move anywhere.

The airbrake requires two separate movements to release it - lift a ring and then flip the lever.

If for some reason the air was to fail then the brakes automatically apply - the air pressure releases the brakes, it doesn't apply them. I was once involved in an HGV accident on a motorway that resulted in an artic being stranded because the air hose ruptured - we needed an engineer to release the brakes before it could be recovered.

So - as long as the driver has secured the vehicle and is using it regularly I would see no problem leaving it running for short periods of time.

I fully agree with the comments about mobile plant - it is much easier for these to start moving without the operator than it is for an HGV to move.

Posted By Crim
Fire appliances need the engine to run for pumping, driver operating the pump at the rear, sometimes walks away to do other tasks.

Some vehicles need to run but risk assessments should mean safe working.

Do a risk assessment with your driver's input and agree on the outcome, write a procedure and ensure he sticks to it.

Posted By Crim
Another instance is bus driver who leaves his cab to load a wheelchair user onto the bus.

In Florida they had a system of closing the front door - no entry for passengers - while loading wheelchairs at the side. This prevented any unauthorised access to the front.

Posted By John Richards
If it is an hgv tractor unit it has air brakes.
As long as it is parked [brakewise] it isn't going to move. I seem to remember that on modern units the gears will not engage when the brakes are "parked"
Anyway, you should worry more about the trailer in shunting operations:
http://www.uktow.com/hgv%20parking.asp

Posted By D H
Is this not covered in section 3 of PUWER of the top of my head?

Will check when I get to the office.

Dave

Posted By GT
Martin, I think you are correct. However, modern days vehicles are fitted with means for starting the vehicle and running the engine and the AC prior to entering, by remote control. These vehicles I may add, have security as all doors remain locked, and the vehicle is also immobilised until the doors are unlocked and the ignition keys entered.

I think in Crim's case that when selecting a PTO it has the same effect, I haven't heard of many fire appliances screaming away during pumping operations.However, we did have an operator jump out of a scraper unit to look at something under the machine only for it to run over him and killed him, the security fence stalled the machine 750 meters away. HE WAS 27.

GT

Posted By Crim
I know of a fatality caused by a JCB left unattended, the operator went round to the front to do something and it ran over him.

Posted By Luke.
Some good points for and against raised..

In the industry I'm in (civil/ground) our guys are pretty good, i enforce that vehicles must not be left unattended with keys in. On inspections with the site manager if i notice one, he will remove the key, put in his pocket and wait for the machine operator to come to him and say he has lost it. It gives the opportunity to explain the reasons why its our company policy, not to scold them, but to have a gentle word in their ear.

I appreciate peoples comments here about loosing keys or the very rare chance/ low risk rating of brake failure but for the sake of a few seconds, I'd rather take the chance of the guys loosing a key than the chance of standing in the docks defending the decision of allowing keys to be left.

It may sound dramatic, but if its easy for guys to take keys home with them by accident (happened on our site too) its just as easy for the guys to leave the keys in the machine and go home, therefore leaving the plant unattended over night.

I think on this topic everyone will have an opinion about "best practice" but on this topic, no one is right and no one is wrong - it just comes down to personal choice.

Posted By gerry d
Having worked on large power and petrochem sites for the last 18 years the norm is usually (and sometimes site policy/ rule) to leave keys in the ignition in case the said vehicle needs to be moved in an emergency situation, e.g. to allow fire team or ambulance access to a given location. Can`t speak for leaving the engine running though. I`m inclined to comment that that is probably a person being resistant to change.

Posted By alex mccreadie
If they were using it properly the outriggers would be down so at least it couldn't run away?

Most HIABS are remote control operated so the Driver/Operator is still in attendance.

Regards Alex

Posted By Phil Rose
Martin - I have tried to quickly read all of the posts in the thread, but I may be repeating what has already been said. In answer to the question in the title of the thread, I think that the answer is 'yes' and I can think of a number of examples on farms where equipment such as log splitters are attached to the PTO of the tractor and are operated by the driver while he is not in the cab. I don't see a problem with this. Refuse collection is another example where the driver will sometimes leave the cab to empty a bin and the engine needs to run in order for the bin lift to operate.

Looking at your own situation, I do think you need to look at how practical and pragmatic turning off the engine etc every time that the driver leaves the cab. Clearly there is a risk but depending on the circumstances, is it significant? I don't think that turning the engine off for every occasion that the cab is left will always be necessary or reasonable, but there will be other times when it is.

Posted By Glyn Atkinson
Does the driver of the vehicle leave the area where the vehicle is parked?

Can the vehicle potentially be taken over by another in the area and the driver would not be aware?

Does the situation warrant a cursory check with your insurers to ascertain their viewpoint?

Thoughts from someone who had a guy retire from work due to being run over twice by an incompetent driver who had access to an flt (similar potential for harm) and cost the insurers over £100,000 in compensation.

"No, your Honour, we let our drivers run the vehicles as they wish!" - best of luck if that's your defence!

Posted By Glyn Atkinson
Twice in 30 seconds actually , and the unauthorised driver was tested over the drink drive limit once I got into work - flt had double pedal for accelerator, one forward, one reverse, and the driver either panicked once he'd hit the poor guy as he hit the wrong pedal and pinned him again.

HSE had a field day with the guy's line manager who had hired him, his cousin, as a labourer only, and let him use an flt when he was short of labour.

The manager broke every safety check rule in place that were all there for the very reason of safety !!