Posted By Crim Just contact the HSE and Blow the whistle! You don't need to know what they are in breach of the HSE Inspector should know that!

Posted By roy walsh Nice one Crim, I contacted the HSE last year about a major fire on the 15th floor, both fire exits were locked. They told me to phone the FRA, they dont deal with residential properties. I have a couple of Nebosh qualifications, but its like I said, when dealing with residential, they seem to be a law unto themselves.

Posted By Linda Crossland-Clarke Hi folks I had the police ring me up the other day and ask me how to phrase an email to a scaffolding company on a domestic property - as it was the summer holidays it had become the local play ground! They copied the enforcing authorities in too. It got sorted. Regards Linda

Posted By Sen Sar 140db......are you sure ??

Posted By Sen Sar its getting late, eyes are weary sorry for the typo's

Posted By Phil Rose I can't help but feel slightly cynical about this post. I find it difficult to believe that any Council would respond to any reasonable complaint or enquiry with the threat of an ASBO. But to return to the issue. 140dB (not sure what weighting) is very high but looking at the type of work I guess that it is possible as well. To be fair, some work creates noise and there is little or nothing that can be done to mitigate that. in such cases I suggest that it is unlikely that a statutory nuisance would exist depending on the time of the day that the need for the work that is being done. The Council or contractor appear to be 'damned' either way. Their choice is to do the work which creates noise or don't make any noise but obviously that means don't do the work. In saying all that, they should have informed the residents and provided some, warning, advice and PERHAPS hearing protection. The issue to me seems to be more about communication.

Posted By Robert K Lewis Phil Rose Do not be so sure about the ASBO response - this threat has become very familiar in some places when a person attempts to assert themselves and question what a public body is doing. I have encounterd the response in both NHS and LA whereby any question about their treatment/service is regarded as an act of violence or threatening behaviour. On the noise issue itself the LA has people at work and I think the HSE may well be interested as S3 applies. Bob

Posted By alan noble Noise which is deemed to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance is dealt with under Environmental Protection Act 1990. In domestic situations enforcement would be by your local Env. Health Dept., and yes, they can act(serve abatement notices) against their own local authority (I believe it just means they have to get independent lawyers if going to court). Your Env. Health Dept. have a duty to investigate any complaint which might constitute a statutory nuisance under EPA. An individual can also take their own legal action under EPA. Since your issue is current I would take it to your local Env. Health. They should at least investigate and may be able get some changes in an informal way.

Posted By alan noble The EPA 1990 is the 'daddy' legislation to deal with nuisance noise. 'Sect.79(1)(g)noise emitted from premises so as to be prejudicail to health or nuisance.' It is enforced by the LA. I don't see anything other than wasted phonecalls and time getting the HSE involved. Go to your local Env.Health, they have a duty to investigate which would include speaking to the relevant construction company or council depts. 1.In my experience EHOs bringing complaints to the attention of construction companies(LA or not)often brings the right result for the complainant short of legal action. 2. Roy doesn't say but I would have thought that the LA would have contracted the work out. If so abatement notice would be served by EHO's on the contractor and therefore not necessarily the LA. 3. Even if LA workers, EHOS will take action against the LA. If they don't they can be reported to the LA Ombudsman. 4. EHOs duty is to public at large not to their employers. For example,EHOs(and other Food Officers)are responsible for enforcement of food hygiene legislation in food premises including LA premises,if an EHO found EColi 0157 in a school kitchen,do you really think they wouldn't take immediate action?

Posted By graeme12345 how long will it go on for and is the work for your benefit. It is not the council it will be an external contractor. The persons who hired in the contractor to carry out the work will have no idea of their legal duties and they will not ask for competent advice from (if they have any) their safety personnel because what they will tell them will be almost impossible to put into action because the management and procedures at the LA is not set up for competent working. It is all about senior management forming housing associations and then making cut backs in maintenance and planned work to raise their brownie points for the directors who will look good in the eyes of the auditors when they come round to carry out their work

Posted By graeme12345 Phil, yes they are, and where do housing associations come from, the previous local council (employees from the council just transferred their condition under tupe to the new HA, so nothing changed there) which were disbanded by this idiotic government under the assumption that they are a good idea. These are still staffed by the ex council workers. And the few employees at the top of the council employees who were team managers are now promoted to directors, and all they do is reduce the existing services to the tenants even more. They have managers, architects and surveyors who deem it the norm to contract the workout and then they have no comprehension of their liabilities in managing the works Tenants now have two sets of wages to pay for out of their council "poll" tax, the remaining local council employees and the Housing Assoc.'s what private company spends any where near the amount of money on H & S training that a housing association does, they will spend £8 or more per head on sandwiches for their employees attending a training session where no one has even been assessed if the employee really needs the training, (especially so for their employees in their sheltered schemes)why, because they are a "investor in people" and it looks good when the auditors come calling

Posted By alan noble Barry x Sorry to disillusion you but you can't just create any noise you wish just because its temporary and in "office" hours. It is normal for construction site operators to given conditions such as permitted noise levels and working times which the LA Env. Health will consider if complied with would not be likely to cause nuisance in that area. Permitted maximum noise level will be relative to the pre-contract ambient noise level of particular area e.g. For pre-existing noise level(quiet residential area perhaps with a nursing home)Laeq 35dBA,the permitted level between 0700 - 1900 would be Laeq 65dBA and LAmax 86dB. If you go to the original post the only information given is LAmax 140dB, the maximum permitted level I have ever come across is LAmax 101dB. Permitted level would be measured within the noise affected residence i.e. Roy W's. I would also suggest that if this work is so 'necessay'that it would have been good PR by the construction compnay to have explained this to any affected premises. Phil R are your colleagues saying its absolutely not an SN, I don't see how they can come to that view on the meagre facts presented so far.

Posted By Phil Rose Graeme, I am well aware that many (not all HA's or RSL's) were 'spawned' from LA's and that many not all of the employees would have transferred across. Indeed the RSL/HA next to us that transferred our housing stock has a significant number of employees that were not previously with the Council, the CEx was NOT from an LA and had never ever worked for an LA. My point is that you made a number of very sweeping statements about the way that over 300 LA's and goodness knows how many RSLs work, that are unsubstantiated and I would say are largely, inaccurate and incorrect. Your posting seems largely 'politically' motivated and very little to do with health and safety. Most LA's and I would have thought HA's have pretty good H&S procedures, certainly those in my experience do. Hertfordshire may be different of course! Alan, I described the situation as per the posting on the thread. My colleagues said that if the work needed doing for the safety of the building structure etc, and that there was no other way to mitigate the noise levels, and that the noise was within reasonable hours then they would not be likely to pursue for SN. They clearly take into account a number of factors such as: the time of the day the duration of the noise the frequency of the noise occurring the type of noise why the noise is being generated whether there is 'societal acceptance' of the noise As I said earlier on in the thread, I am rather cynical about threads like this with titles such as 'COWBOY COUNCIL' etc, especially those that claim that someone has been threatened with an ASBO just for making a compliant and that the 'landlord' is exempt from CDM because the property is residential. I suggest that there is more to this than meets the eye. As the thread seems to have strayed well away from H&S I wonder if the Mods might consider locking?

Posted By Barry x Alan, I am well aware that you are not allowed to make any noise you please if it is temporary but given the circumstances as provided by Reg there is no way that a LA Env Health Dept is going to take action against legitimate temporary work during reasonable working hours! Consultation between the contractor and the residents would have been advisable as a courtesy!

Posted By Telfie I am a health and safety adviser and work for a LA Our housing improvement team are currently working on high-rise flats, fitting kitchens replacing windows etc; Part of this work includes using mast climbers etc. This work is notifiable under CDM and we ensure all residents are briefed of the work schedules and working areas, they are also informed of the potential hazards and noise, we even offer hearing protection, although the noise is more of a nuisance problem. When we actually work in their flat, the resident is moved to other accommodation (same building)during the works. I make regular site visits and tenant liaison officers are available and located on site, should residents have any issues. I can only speak for the authority I work for, but I know for sure if a resident made a complaint it would be investigated and dealt with. No ASBO, No HSE….. Just good communication Telfie

Posted By Mike Miller Well said Telfie! Having worked for a contractor on Decent Homes Standard refurbishments I am aware that there are consultation sessions regularly with the tenants association (local residents) Elected members and the housing team. PM's are appointed from the housing team and tenant liaison officers are always on hand. Yes there is mass disruption but many housing groups having this work done make provision for residents to AVOID the noise and public risks to the work by allocation of daily day/rest centres such as library, community centres and such! But you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink! Some people will just not use the facility and then just moan despite spending around 10k on there property for their benefit. When we did it we offered a decant to those who were too ill to have the work done around them (that's an empty property that is already complete in another block on a 4 week turnaround) In a tower block there is no where to hide with mast climbers going up and down all day, people gorking in the windows and electricians hammer drilling from dawn to dusk. Its not Ideal to do refurbishment works around people in residence but with proper risk management it is perfectly safe. I personally enjoyed the challenge of the work