Posted By Messy Shaw I have a customer who operate residential care homes which provide sleeping accommodation & care for the elderly and elderly mentally ill. In addition to this 24/7 service, there are a range of day services provided, including occupational therapy etc. In the past, all staff received compulsory annual training, but the RP now wants to introduce a system of training to what he refers to as "on a risk based frequency". He has determined that anyone who provides hands on care to residents (ie who sleep on the premises) will carry on receiving annual training, whilst everyone else gets refresher training every 2 years. Whilst I feel this may be acceptable for those employed with admin duties who work exclusively in office areas, I have reservations as to whether the new approach is suitable & sufficient for other staff such as those who provide the day services. These would include health care assistants, OTs, catering staff and volunteers - all of which are dealing with very vulnerable & confused elderly punters who will need help when evacuating. The RP is insistent (presumably spurred on by the cash this will save) and suggests that many other resi care and healthcare providers train in this manner. BS9999 (and the old 5588 series) disagree and suggest training every 12m for high risk areas. The RP - despite my advice - does not feel that 30 elderly mentally ill persons in a day centre within a Victorian house represents 'high risk'!! Again, the relevant HTM (can't remember the number) used by NHS premises suggests annual training but it doesn't apply to this private business I am about to collect my cheque and walk away from this idiot, but before I do I intend to send him a last letter outlining my concerns. To help me with this, does anyone know of any similar premises who train their staff every two years? and if so, how is it justified in their FRA and have they been successfully audited by the local fire service? Your own comments and opinions would be appreciated as well. Am I being too OTT?

Posted By Robin M Can't a solution be found that keeps him (the idiot as you put it) happy and meets the training needs? I agree with you that training every 12 months is required for this high risk area. What about training a couple of the senior carers / supervisors to carry out the training to others? those that were going to recieve training 12 monthly still get it from the source it was going to be obtained from before and everybody else gets a refresher from a suitably trained member of the team? In my opinion that would be sufficient and reduce training costs. The reduction from current costs should give you some leverage in the negotiation. What you have described is the key to our proffesion. It is not about being able to quote regulations, but getting poeple to do things that improve safety and health in the workplace. Many of us face the type of resistance you have described and my advice would be to not give up but keep plugging away (document everything) and one way or another improve those standards and get what you want. I hope you can manage to sort this. Best off luck.

Posted By Messy Shaw Thanks to everyone for the views expressed. I have been involved with this customer as a one off consultation to review the fire strategy for the business. Part of that consultation involved me carrying out sample FRA reviews at a sampleof his premises and spending time in these homes getting to understand how they work, what risks are present & consulting with staff. To be fair to the customer (and retracting the idiot tag I rather unprofessionally gave him!)most of the recommendations in my report have been taken up, and I usually take the view that if a customer does not wish to implement my findings,that it is his right. As the RP, it's up to him to use any information how he wishes. But for some reason his decision to change the frequency of training has got under my skin and for once, uncharacteristically for me, I have been rather annoyed at the customer's attitude. It's probably hit me a bit as some of the buildings are not in the best of condition and some of the care provided to these very poorly people looks a little ropey. This chap has very short arms and very long pockets so doesn't like reaching for his wallet too often in an average day! My approach to all the issues in this job have been risk based - including my difference of opinion with him over the training frequency. I have used 9999 and various other standards as evidence to back up my views and definitely not as a prescriptive 'law'. I believe his goals are merely saving cash and combating risk is way down on his agenda (there's quite a lot more going on here than I can reveal here). But I accept that he is the customer at the end of the day and can do what he feels is best. I have taken on board the idea about training staff and allowing them to cascade their training to other staff in lower risk areas. That does seem to offer a compromise and I am grateful for everyone's input.

Posted By andhum The problem with Health and Safety is convincing internal and external customers you are right. You cannot run someone else's business, you have given him the best advice you can. If he doesn't comply fully with it you can only point out the negatives. The fact that he/she employed you is a pretty good sign. My advice is don't walk away, sit back, he/she may want you back - and give you another cheque!!

Posted By Phil Rose Messy - I wouldn't walk away from him unless you really don't need the business or money. As already alluded to - the risk based approach seems reasonable to me, you can express your concerns, but in the end the responsibility lies with him or someone within his organisation. I think that companies etc are just becoming more 'commercially aware' at the moment and health and safety is one of those things that companies are looking at a little more closely and hopefully sensibly that perhaps they have in the past. Hope that helps By the way is Steve Grimes going for the record of having the most number of posted 'pulled'? Just read 4 threads and he has has had 4 posts 'pulled'! Am I missing something?

Posted By Messy Shaw Of course you are all right, in that I should provide the information as requested (the FRA) and let the RP decide what he wants to do with it - even if he ignores al of it. That is usually my default position, but I really disliked this guy. The more I looked, the more evidence I saw of penny pinching to the extreme that there was very little obvious 'care' in these care homes. He was more focused on profit than looking after these very vulnerable clients who were a long way down his list of priorities. Some of what he said and his general attitude of disrespect for these old people further distanced me from him. But I suppose, business is business and I will have to just bite the bullet and get on with it. It seems like I am getting all soppy and emotional in my old age :)