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Davimor  
#1 Posted : 17 November 2009 15:56:58(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Has anyone any experience of allowing staff to cut up a fallen tree on company property in the staff's own time (i.e. not at work) by the use of chainsaws and the insurance, legal and liability implications this may have for the company: Any info' would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.
teh_boy  
#2 Posted : 17 November 2009 16:17:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/hswact/index.htm IMHO Section 3 applies - you are effectively a contractor and the company will be vicariously liable for your actons.
Canopener  
#3 Posted : 17 November 2009 18:57:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

This doesn't help answer your question but, as a general rule, it would be pretty exceptional to apply the principle of vicarious liability for a criminal act, such as under S3. I am not certain that S3 would apply in this case (I could be wrong) and would add that even if S3 did apply, it is by no means certain that a company would necessarily be held (solely or jointly) liable for the actions of a contractor; that would very much depend on the circumstances of the case. It's a tricky one though isn't it? If I were to get a contractor in to do it then I would expect them to have NTPC/LANTRA, wear suitable protective kit etc. On the other hand, I for one would not rule out an employee doing what you describe, depending on the circumstances.
bob youel  
#4 Posted : 18 November 2009 08:11:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Talk to your insurers as I would be supprised if they covered a none competent person to undertake such work irrespective of their status e.g. employee, contractor or volunteer and as its an employee the 'gain' by your company could be pushed by a good barrister etc to cover this activity as an employee activity The type of tree must also be considered as some cannot easily be disposed of and personally I would not allow any arbourist work to be undertaken by a none *competent person [* competent in this case would be somebody who has all the appropriate training [NPTC etc] + experience + PPE etc] If your employee is competent [and acts as such on the day inclusive of disposal -as leaving on the ground to rot may not be suitable] and your insurers are OK then the action is probably allowable noting that H&S is here to ensure business continues NOT to stop business
Canopener  
#5 Posted : 18 November 2009 12:16:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I understand the sentiment, but I have learnt to be wary of asking insurers for advice, as they tend to be risk adverse and I have had some pretty daft advice from them in the past. Again, I understand where you are coming from, but as a general principle, I am not sure if a lack of competency, would generally 'invalidate' an employers liability insurance. My understanding is that an employee is covered under the ELI regardless of whether they are competent to do the job that they are doing or not. Arguably, I would have thought that a great many accidents claimed for under ELI are as the result of the employee not being competent.
redken  
#6 Posted : 18 November 2009 13:46:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

Davimor. Why is it being done in the employee's own time. Is it because they want the wood? i.e they are requesting to do it.
knight998  
#7 Posted : 18 November 2009 14:09:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
knight998

I have always known it to be if you knowingly allow the act you become responsible as it is on your premises and assuming your equipment they are using.
Canopener  
#8 Posted : 18 November 2009 16:29:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

knight998 wrote:
I have always known it to be if you knowingly allow the act you become responsible as it is on your premises and assuming your equipment they are using.
I sort of know what you're saying, but I don't think that establishing liability is as simple, clear cut, or straightforward as that, but is rather dependant on the circumstances of the case.
JEDS  
#9 Posted : 18 November 2009 17:01:50(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
JEDS

Its an issue which many country landowners have to deal with. In days gone by when I worked for such an organisation the rule was that if you were to use a chainsaw in your own time then you had to have all the necessary protective clothing for the operation and be trained for the task, certainly to NPTC standard with the relevant units for the work being carried out. Additionally you were not permitted to work alone. Before any work was carried out it was agreed what would be done, generally the wood which was cleared would have been cleared in any event, therefore the work was being done on behalf of the employer and in effect the operator was working in the capacity as a volunteer (even if the rest of his days was spent doing the same job as an employee). Our insurer's were content with this arrangement and of course Section 3 applied.
knight998  
#10 Posted : 18 November 2009 21:06:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
knight998

Jeds your summary is relative to my simplified account. I would be going along these lines if it was my situation then you are doing what is reasonably practicable in the circumstance. You only have to look at cases where children enter constructions sites, they have make sure they secure the site to a reasonably practicable level. I think there is possibly a moral responabilty in this case as well as legal one.
bob youel  
#11 Posted : 19 November 2009 14:44:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

forget the chain saw; get the person to use a hand saw and many of your problems are solved My advice is to do it via a competent person as 'in their own time' is a weak defence if something happened
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