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Juki  
#1 Posted : 18 November 2009 15:32:14(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Juki

An organisation I am doing some work for has a mandate to shift ALL face-to face training to e-learning. I can see how this might work for basic training to the masses, however I am concerned over risk management issues which call for more complex judgement. Does anyone know of any legal challenges to the adequacy of e-learning? Successful or otherwise? Also , without incurring excessive cost, how does one go about measuring what the trainees have learned and demonstrating that the training is not just a tick in the box? Thanks in advance!
jay  
#2 Posted : 18 November 2009 16:20:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Juki, I am not aware of explicit case law regarding the inadaquacies of e-learning, but there are findings and recommendations arising from the various reports of the BP Texas City Refinery Disaster that criticise the over-emphasis on e-learning. One of the recommendations of the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board (CSB) to BP was "to improve the operator training program. At a minimum, require face-to-face training conducted by personnel with process-specific knowledge and experience who can assess trainee competency, and training on recognizing and handling abnormal situations including the use of simulators or similar training tools. The above recommendation was based on the finding that BP in a cost cutting excercise reduced the training budget and replced e-learning with face to face training.
ahoskins  
#3 Posted : 18 November 2009 16:27:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ahoskins

Hi Juki, I have been evaluating e-learning packages for about 18 months and do not see them replacing face to face training apart from at an elementary level. What I do see though, is that e-learning is likely to extend our training to a much wider audience, particularly in my sector where generally, academic staff cannot (will not) see the relevance of attending classroom based health and safety training.
Clairel  
#4 Posted : 18 November 2009 16:31:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Juki, So you don't rate Open University for people doing degrees (and other courses) then? That in effect is e-learning isn't it? There are many distance based courses and there have been for years. Just becuase you are not there in person doesn't mean you can't learnt effectively. Some may say that they learn more effectively when not sat in front of a dull tutor, on uncomfortable chairs, in a hot room and with too few breaks. Assessment doesn't have to be by tick box learning either. For the record I have never done e-learning but I don't have a problem with it. I know people who it has suited well. It is an accessible form of learning for many who can't attend courses in person or to allow a more flexible learning approach and there is no reason to stick to the traditional face to face model IMO.
ahoskins  
#5 Posted : 18 November 2009 16:39:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ahoskins

Claire, There's a big difference between distance learning and basis health and safety e-learning which I believe Juki is referring to. Also there is interaction between real (live) tutors and often periods when students get together for weekend face to face interaction. I don't think that you can realistically compare the two.
ahoskins  
#6 Posted : 18 November 2009 16:41:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ahoskins

Doh!!! I took advice from other posters and installed an IE Spell Checker, but it didn't notice 'basis' instead of 'basic'... Need a Grammar Checker as well I think!
Clairel  
#7 Posted : 18 November 2009 16:53:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Actually not all distance learning does have face to face contact time at all. I just don't see what the problem is with being given the information to learn electronically and then having to demonstrate (in whatever way) that you have learnt / understood. Perhaps someone can explain exactly the process of safety e-learning they are referring to so that I can try to understand why it could be such an issue?? It could be I have got things muddled up and am thinking of something different.
UVSAR  
#8 Posted : 19 November 2009 09:55:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
UVSAR

As I discussed in the HSW article on e-learning, it really depends on two things as to if it's acceptable: 1) Does the content require practical demonstration of skills (driving, climbing, operating a lathe, etc.)? 2) Is it necessary to assess the student continually (e.g. by observation)? If both are "no", then effective e-learning is perfectly possible, provided it's implemented correctly. We *can* prove the person at the keyboard is who they say they are to legally-admissible standards. We *can* assess cognitive understanding far better with software than with a paper exam, and well-built e-learning content is proven to deliver better levels of retention and understanding than Powerpoint Guy in a stuffy classroom. However, sending people a Youtube link with a note saying "watch dis and Ur a crane driver" is evidentially stupid, just as a fully-theoretical course in a classroom can't turn you into one either. Remember that e-learning is used by the largest training provider on the planet (the US Government), but quietly so. You don't see much promo coverage in the press, but equally you don't hear anyone complaining it's second-rate compared to the old system - and if they were, trust me the press would leap on it.
Steve Greenwood  
#9 Posted : 19 November 2009 10:24:46(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Steve Greenwood

e-learning certainly has it's place, and can be an effective method of tuition. However, the opportunities for group discussion and interaction with the tutor, sharing experiences etc. and thus reinforcing the learning process only really occur in in a clasroom setting. "Horses for courses" is the phrase the comes to mind.
UVSAR  
#10 Posted : 19 November 2009 11:33:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
UVSAR

If e-learning means staring at a set of slides on your laptop, then yes. However e-learning is any use of technology to deliver content - even using PowerPoint in a classroom is e-learning. REMOTE learning, where the candidate sits someplace else, can still be interactive on a grouped level if the instructor is good at his/her job. You can use combinations of audio and video telepresence (phone conferencing, screen sharing, Mingleverse and Second Life) to put people together so they can see each other, talk amongst themselves, etc. - I agree you can't get the same level of banter over a coffee, but that's not part of the training program - that's just being social. I for one don't intend to fly to LA next month just to give a 30 minute talk, and neither would the audience expect me to. THEY are all in the same building, it's just me that's on a video screen. I can still tell bad jokes, but with one less airplane involved the client can save more in carbon credits than the course is costing them to run. Can I tell if someone wanders out the room? No - but their manager can as she's in there with them.
sutty  
#11 Posted : 19 November 2009 11:58:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
sutty

An old organisation of mine attempted to implement e-learning a couple of years ago. I fought hard to make it a matter of personal choice for the learners. Personally I cannot begin to consider undertaking an academic course with out the face to face interaction of both the teaching staff and the other people on the course. I find it much more helpful to be able to bounce ideas and theories off my peers face to face, rather than attempting to get across a point in an email. Personal preference.
Eric Kos  
#12 Posted : 19 November 2009 12:10:07(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Eric Kos

Elearning for shop floor employees is appropriate, cost and time effective, Face to face is appropriate for staff with more responsibility for other employees ie managers, supervisors etc. where a company needs to prepare that person for more of a proactive role on the issue ie health & safety. A mixture of both in an organisation delivering appropriate training to different levels within that oprganisation is the way to go. By way of example I deliver IOSH managing safely face to face to client's first line managers and above and offer a suite of 26 health & safety titles online to their general employee populace. The online system delivers effective elementary training well within training budgets and is seen as exceptional value for money.
martinw  
#13 Posted : 20 November 2009 10:58:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
martinw

Some organisations come out and say explicitly that e-learning is not sufficient in itself. The Department of Health's 'Firecode - Fire Safety in the NHS' , Part A - General and Safety, has this in para 4.12: 'The use of e-learning is a rapidly developing area and may offer a number of benefits to an organisation. However, e-learning is not acceptable as the sole means of training staff. E-learning can only be used to support training delivered by a competent fire safety adviser.' So there we have it for the NHS. Cheers Martin
Juki  
#14 Posted : 20 November 2009 13:14:31(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Juki

Hi there, thanks for your response, do you have a reference for the article?
UVSAR wrote:
As I discussed in the HSW article on e-learning, it really depends on two things as to if it's acceptable: 1) Does the content require practical demonstration of skills (driving, climbing, operating a lathe, etc.)? 2) Is it necessary to assess the student continually (e.g. by observation)? If both are "no", then effective e-learning is perfectly possible, provided it's implemented correctly. We *can* prove the person at the keyboard is who they say they are to legally-admissible standards. We *can* assess cognitive understanding far better with software than with a paper exam, and well-built e-learning content is proven to deliver better levels of retention and understanding than Powerpoint Guy in a stuffy classroom. However, sending people a Youtube link with a note saying "watch dis and Ur a crane driver" is evidentially stupid, just as a fully-theoretical course in a classroom can't turn you into one either. Remember that e-learning is used by the largest training provider on the planet (the US Government), but quietly so. You don't see much promo coverage in the press, but equally you don't hear anyone complaining it's second-rate compared to the old system - and if they were, trust me the press would leap on it.
Juki  
#15 Posted : 20 November 2009 13:16:25(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Juki

Great, thanks so much!!
martinw wrote:
Some organisations come out and say explicitly that e-learning is not sufficient in itself. The Department of Health's 'Firecode - Fire Safety in the NHS' , Part A - General and Safety, has this in para 4.12: 'The use of e-learning is a rapidly developing area and may offer a number of benefits to an organisation. However, e-learning is not acceptable as the sole means of training staff. E-learning can only be used to support training delivered by a competent fire safety adviser.' So there we have it for the NHS. Cheers Martin
Juki  
#16 Posted : 20 November 2009 13:18:34(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Juki

Hi Jay, useful info, thank you. I am not aware of explicit case law regarding the inadaquacies of e-learning, but there are findings and recommendations arising from the various reports of the BP Texas City Refinery Disaster that criticise the over-emphasis on e-learning. One of the recommendations of the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board (CSB) to BP was "to improve the operator training program. At a minimum, require face-to-face training conducted by personnel with process-specific knowledge and experience who can assess trainee competency, and training on recognizing and handling abnormal situations including the use of simulators or similar training tools. The above recommendation was based on the finding that BP in a cost cutting excercise reduced the training budget and replced e-learning with face to face training.
hardiment27  
#17 Posted : 20 November 2009 13:28:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hardiment27

I am very interested in this subject and often wondered the benefits of e-learning vs normal classroom based training. For subjects such as fire it is difficult to imagine e-learning being 100 % effective, due to the physical nature of this subject. However for subjects such as Risk assessment e-learning style learning can certainly be an option. If possible can you contact me at jh.safety@yahoo.co.uk as I may have other options that have not been discussed yet. Regards Joe
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