Rank: Forum user 
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looking for some help / guidance regarding legionnaires and fire hoses and the risks.
thanks
trevor
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Rank: Forum user 
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As a microbiologist, I see lots of Legionella contamination and a substantial amount of Legionnaires Disease. The possibility that water in a fire hose may be a reservoir of infection seems to me an entitely tangible proposition, though one that I would not concern myself with.
For infection to occur, the organism must be present with a route for respiratory acquisition. I assume that fire hoses are tested periodically, though from what I have seen its a matter of drawing off a little water into a bucket. Unless therefore you are using those hoses to wash down the workplace each week, I wouldn't be concerned about this.
Methods of control by water treatment would be especially troublesome and difficult to achieve, and exposure most unlikely. Though there may be some CoP or other mandatory obligation to testing I'm not aware of it - and we don't get any such requests in my labs - I'd be concerned only to ensure that fire safety standards are met and not about a risk of infection.
In case of fire, don't call a microbiologist!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Ballymartin I take it that you require the information anyway. It is not my field and I certainly will not give an opinion when it is out of my comfort zone, and especially when Ian Blenkharn has given you his opinion - he is one of the gurus on this forum. But in the event that you require the info for another reason, see this old document with some useful info. It is older than the legislation requiring testing but may be of use on a general basis. You may have to double check if the standards have been superceded and will have to take into consideration more recent relevant legislation. This may at least be a usefil starting point for you. http://www.firesprinkler...Documents/Legionella.pdf
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Rank: Super forum user 
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This is one that I have also pondered in the past as we have fire hoses in our offices, although I would never expect them to be used by an employee and I would think that it was highly unlikely that the Fire Service would go anywhere near them. Ours our tested in much the way that Ian has described. As Ian points out though, the legionella bacteria is ubiquitous and may very well be present in your system. It is a risk that we have considered, taken advice on and concluded that the risk is minimal bearing in mind that is unlikely ever to be deployed, and arguably if it was in the event of a fire, I suppose the risk of legionella would be secondary to the risks associated with not tackling te fire.
I was interested in the link that Martin provided though, especially under the heading of "Legislation" where it states "There are no named Regulations for protecting against legionellosis", but it then goes on to essentially contradict that statement by referring to COSHH and L8. While COSHH may not specifically mention legionella, it most definitely requires employers to control the risks from it, and indeed L8 is intended as a mechanism for employers to comply with COSHH.
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Rank: Forum user
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Crikey, being called a guru is something of a shocker. Thank you Martin.
In all seriousness, in these difficult times we are all trying hard to get more work in. But if someone was to ask me for Legionella culture on water from a fire hose or sprinkler system I would reject it as bad science and an entirely unnecessary investigation that I would not wish to be associated with.
Anyway, if the sprinklers were activated and you had need to use the hose, I'd be running the other way.....fast!
Ian
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Rank: Super forum user
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Phil - quite. I am normally a dab hand at finding assisting information and in this case the best I could source was old and a bit reluctant.
Ian - I used to think that to do a course or read a topic would give you an insight into a topic, when I was an impudent upstart. I have come to realise that the use of courses, examinations and learning are important but that they are also tools to be used in order to focus and make relevant your experience to another area. I could read a thousand articles from learned sources. Doesn't make me learned. Means I have read other people's stuff.
I do not know how long you have been doing your role, but I imagine that without looking you up that it is something like thirty years. Apologies if I am making you older than you are! But I do not have another lifetime of learning to get to where you are.
Same for Messy who has thirty or so years FF experience as I understand it. I do not ever have the time to get that experience.
I am not saying that experience makes you worth listening to, but in your cases I will listen whenever you have a post, as to get your professional opinion otherwise would be out of my wallet range!
Cheers
Martin
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Rank: Forum user
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martinw wrote:Ian - I used to think that to do a course .......
I do not know how long you have been doing your role, but I imagine that without looking you up that it is something like thirty years. Apologies if I am making you older than you are! But I do not have another lifetime of learning to get to where you are Started at 18 and now 56. 38 years and love it still, and still learning. Some of my students refer to me as 'the old war horse' but there's plenty of life in the old dog yet
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Rank: Super forum user
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Martin - I think the info was essentially good stuff, just seemed to me a little odd in the way that they approached the legislation issue, as Legionella is clearly covered under COSHH and supported by L8
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Rank: Guest 
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Yes they certainly can be source of infection, just by nature of the water that collects in them etc, etc. dependant on how they are tested the risk can be real. I have frequently seen fire hoses being fired out of windows etc to fully test the auto-run out operation.
There is a lot of opinion now being put forward that unless essential to the fire safety of a site fire hoses should be removed and replaced with 2x 13A rated extinguishers. However you can't just take them out apparently you have to ask permission from the local brigade, which I am told is rarely refused.
I am told the rationale is firstly that the inexhaustable supply of water from a hose encourages people to stay and fight a fire longer than they should safely do so. Secondly there are numerous untested hoses out there, and thirdly the legionella risk.
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Rank: Forum user
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Andymak
Interesting proposition, that they can be a source of infection. They might be contaminated to some extent, but that does not complete the triad of criteria for the delevlopment of infection. For this you need a susceptible host (OK) and an organisms capable of causing disease (OK again), but you also need a mechanism, a route of exposure, that connects the two.
I hear what you say about fire service advice, but in the same way that you should never ask a microbiologist about fire, I would hesitate to take the advice of the fire service about infection risks.
Ian
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Rank: Forum user
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Just to come back with a little more, and to put this properly into context re Legionella testing of fire hoses and sprinkler systems.
If the fire brigade want anyone to believe that there is a real and significant infection risk from these, when will they start to call for tests of water from hydrants and of the water tanks on their own vehicles?
They don't, so we might conclude that whoever wrote such a document had actually been playing conkers!
And if your house/car/shed/office/factory is on fire, do you want to see a copy of their most recent Legionella test certificate, or should they just hurry to extinguising the fire?
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Rank: Guest
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Nice to have a lively debate!
Fire hydrants are usually on the public main so plenty of water flow there keeping things fresh, also when they connect up the brigade usually run some off first a. to check there is pressure, and b. to get a clean flow perhaps?
As for their hoses I wouldn't think there would be much chance of development as the water is run out before packing away and generally would be used daily if not in anger for training.
With your installed fire hose as you say two conditions are met, the third surely comes from the spray coming out of the end?
As for sprinklers I have seen these come up as a hazard on legionella RA's.
Is it true microbiologists do it under the microscope? :-)
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Rank: Forum user
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Sprinklers coming up as a hazard on legionella RA's imply meaningless RA's. Unless of course your RA concerns itself with the person exposed when they activate the spinklers in which case you're going to have a huge job sanitising what should under normal circumstances be a closed and sealed system. It's not going to be possible to get enough hot water or biocide throughout each arm unless they are activated, which is not an option. You could always flush them through on a Friday afternoon, to get the temperature up to scratch, but don't plan anything for Saturday as you will spend the rest of the weekend mopping up!
I'm told that not every hydrant is so close to an active main to ensure a fresh supply.
Don't forget those 1,000+ litres of water in a grubby on-board tank. Take a look at the externally-mounted water level indicator that is often tinged green. That alone is sufficient evidence to propose that those tanks are never sanitised. So when you have a fire and they use a vehicle-mounted hose - presumably the first choice in most circumstances - don't breath in. Presumably the fire brigades have managed to think of this but have chosen to ignore it, so it's a little strange that they might concern themselves with fire hoses in buildings while ignoring their own.
So it is reported, microbiologists do it with culture and sensitivity. And quite right too!
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