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jwk  
#1 Posted : 15 December 2009 13:24:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Afternoon,

A couple of my team just did the NEBOSH Fire Safety Cert at a highly regarded training centre somewhere in England. One of the nuggets they picked up was that due to the Corporate Manslaughter Act, Guidance should be treated as having the same status as an ACOP. Now, they both have NEBOSH Dip, in fact one of them has taught the Dip at a University, so they didn't actually believe this. I looked at the Act.

I had a look at the Act, and there is a little bit of something in it, in s8(3) it says:

'The jury may also—
(a) consider the extent to which the evidence shows that there were
attitudes, policies, systems or accepted practices within the
organisation that were likely to have encouraged any such failure as is
mentioned in subsection (2), or to have produced tolerance of it;
(b) have regard to any health and safety guidance that relates to the alleged
breach.'

Which certainly indicates that H&S guidance would be used by the jury in making a decision. This seems quite a bit short of equivalence between guidance and ACOP, but it is indicative.

I haven't been to any seminars or training events about this Act since it was in consultation in 2006, so if any legal bods have an opinion about this I would be quite keen. As always it seems to me the best way to avoid this is to do things, SFARP, right, and then corporate manslaughter isn't a problem, but still, what do people think?

John
m  
#2 Posted : 15 December 2009 13:28:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

I would have thought that 'guidance' referred to a wide ranging array of inputs and would include ACoPs, guidance but also advice from experts in the relevant field - potentially something that one of us has advised on verbally or otherwise
jwk  
#3 Posted : 15 December 2009 13:50:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

It could be read that way certainly,

John
RayRapp  
#4 Posted : 15 December 2009 14:24:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I agree that 'guidance' could refer to any official publication, although it would probably relate to HSE guidance, and could include informal advice from a HSE officer or the terms of an Enforcement Notice.

In theory compliance with h&s law and associated guidance will insulate the organisation from prosecution. However, in practice a serious accident involving a fatality is more than likely to breach h&s laws by de facto.
ajb  
#5 Posted : 15 December 2009 16:44:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ajb

It will be interesting to see how this is interpreted by juries over time.

I've been advised that as well as HSE guidance it could also be interpreted to mean things such as manufacturers instruction booklets/training material, in-house guides/SSoW etc and it doesn't have to be the limited to just the written word either.
Canopener  
#6 Posted : 15 December 2009 17:14:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I don't think that it is the intention of the CMCHA that guidance should be treated as the same, and I am not convinced that it is necessary to do so either. In saying that, S8(5) gives a little more insight into what the legislators consider 'guidance' to be, and when read, some people may argue that it very much does look to be giving guidance, ACoP etc the same 'status'.

I think you need to keep things in perspective and consider the context. Of course, compliance with 'standards' be they ACoP, guidance etc will inevitably be a consideration in most cases, not just CMCHA. BUt as far as CMCHA goes I suggest that the key consideration for the jury will be to consider whether there has been a 'gross failure' of the specific duty, although I suppose inevitably in trying to detemine that , they may look to the guidance to give them ................. er .................. guidance. I would like to think that the judge will point them in the right direction!

As I say I don't think that S8(3) & (5) was intended to confer the same status, but perhaps it has unintentionally done so. Time will tell!
jwk  
#7 Posted : 15 December 2009 17:22:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Thanks for that Phil. I do agree that there doesn't seem any particular need to give Guidance the same status as an ACOP; the two complement each other and have always allowed a degree of necessary flexibility in achieving the objective. However, I also have to say that I think s8(5) does certainly put all 'official' H&S literature on the same footing.

This is all of course only in respect of CMCHA, and would only apply once an organisation had been arraigned and the jury deliberating; by that time it's probably all a bit too late anyway.

This could be a case of 'legislative creep', at least insofar as CMCHA is concerned,

John
jwk  
#8 Posted : 16 December 2009 11:53:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Just had a long chat with one of my colleagues and I think we've unpicked all this a bit.

What this is about is the intention behind the CM&CHA; 'gross breach', or to use a phrase used in much of the open discussion about the Act prior to its enactment, 'conduct which falls far below the expected standard'. s8 is written to guide Juries in an appreciation of what the 'expected standard' is. So the Act is saying that in deciding whether a 'gross breach' has been committed, Juries are free to consider 'any code, guidance, manual or similar publication that is concerned with health and safety matters and is made or issued (under a statutory provision or otherwise) by an authority responsible for the enforcement of any health and safety legislation'.

Now, you might say, this only applies to the CM&CHA; but the questions you then ask yourself are 'does this act apply to your employer? Would a safety accident open them to prosecution under CM&CHA?' The answer to the second question has to be, at the moment, 'yes, it might'.

It looks like a change in status of guidance to me, though I accept Phil's point about Judge's directions to the Jury, and as yet we have no way of knowing whether this Act will prove workable, in particular we don't know how well it will be applied to medium and large employers,

John
DaveDaniel  
#9 Posted : 17 December 2009 09:52:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaveDaniel

I'd noticed this at the outset. Another example of poorly drafted legislation.

We all wait to see what judges make of it but I'd be surprised if a judge would accept any old guidance without looking closely at its provenance, especially bearing in mind the seriousness of the charge.

It's not unusual to find some HSE "guidance" produced by regional office without full approval of the HSE board, as far as I understand things. Personally I think a judge would be very wary of allowing such evidence into court if challenged, unless there was clear evidence the source and author were authoritative, and it may even be the Act itself is found wanting in this respect. You can't have a comment or note by any Tom, Dick or Harry which might have been obscurely published without any scrutiny being portrayed as key evidence in a manslaughter case.

I just wish people would not hype Corporate Manslaughter up to something it isn't. What it is is poorly thought-out law which will probably be rarely applied and is unlikely to prove the demon it is claimed to be. I await with interest the outcome of the first case.
marklinton  
#10 Posted : 17 December 2009 11:31:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
marklinton

Should the word 'guidance' be read in the context of a 'gross breach' - simply not following a guidance document may not represent a gross breach but entirely failing to take into account an ACoP might.

I think someone mentioned above that if you find yourself arguing this point for real it is something of a moot point.

I don't think I would agree that it is an ill thought out piece of legislation, the idea behind it is sound enough - that is, having difficulty prosecuting large organisations due to problems in identifying the directing mind then remove the need to identify that person and replace it with failings at a high level that caused the gross breach (or words to that effect). Unfortunately, identifying these failings won't be any easier than than the directing mind.
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 17 December 2009 12:48:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

A 'gross breach' should take into account all the material facts of the case and not just one particular element. It will be for the jury to decide whether there was a gross breach, assuming a Duty of Care was owed to the deceased.

William O'Donnell  
#12 Posted : 17 December 2009 13:13:07(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

After reading the various replies to this thread can I just clarify my understanding of ACOP's and Guidance, and get some confirmation that I am interperting these correctly.

Approved Codes of Practice have a special legal status. If employers are prosecuted for a breach of health and safety law, and it is proved that they have not followed the relevant provisions of the Approved Code of Practice, a court can find them at fault unless they can show that they have complied with the law in
some other way. Therefore I would argue that complying with an ACOP is not compulsory, as long as you are doing something as good or better. Is this correct?

Following guidance is not compulsory and employers are free to take other action. The HSE states that if you do follow guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the law. The key here is the phrase "you will normally be doing enough to comply with the law". This suggests to me that there is no guarantee that following a guidnace means you are complying with your duties under the law, the Courts may decide that it was 'reasonably practicable' for you to have done more and therefore you are not complying with your duties. Is the correct?
RayRapp  
#13 Posted : 17 December 2009 14:46:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

William

I think this post is in danger of getting bogged down with too much detail. Following HSE ACoPs, guidance and so on will never provide a 'guarantee' that a) an accident will not occur b) you will not get prosecuted. With regards to corporate manslaughter, there are many factors that will be taken into account and I suspect that not following HSE guidance will be the last of an organisations' worries. Most, if not all, serious accidents will include some degree of non-compliance with h&s law and HSE guidance. That is the nature of the beast.

Ray
jay  
#14 Posted : 17 December 2009 15:30:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

I would recommend that you read the detailed guidance that accompanies the Act from the Ministry of Justice.

The guidance on the Act is at:-
http://www.justice.gov.u...nslaughterhomicide07.pdf

The guidance has a fairly deatiled answer to the question, "What standards are expected of organisations?"

It goes on to inform that guidance from regulatory authorities may be helpful to a jury when considering the extent of any failures to comply with health and safety legislation and whether the organisation’s conduct has fallen far below what could reasonably have been expected.

The key term is "far below what could have been reasonably have been expected".




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