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TaylorCM  
#1 Posted : 30 January 2010 16:06:59(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
TaylorCM

Has anyone got a clue if I need to get chandalier rope and pulley inspected under LOLER in a Church setting? I am hoping not, and just relying on a competent volunteer to view it when it is lowered for it's annual clean and bulb change. Here's hoping for some sensible risk management! Clive
Jim Tassell  
#2 Posted : 01 February 2010 15:58:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Jim Tassell

Clive Is the main purpose of your rope and pulley to enable you to transfer a load from one level to another like a crane etc? It doesn't sound like it, so you slip past LOLER. See Paras 31 and 32 of L113 "Safe Use of Lifting Equipment", now a free download from HSE books, for justification. But yes, check it when you have the opportunity as it's probably work equipment anyway! And keep a record to justify your check (could this be the case for a few digital photos perhaps?)
TaylorCM  
#3 Posted : 01 February 2010 17:01:31(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
TaylorCM

Jim Tassell wrote:
Clive Is the main purpose of your rope and pulley to enable you to transfer a load from one level to another like a crane etc? It doesn't sound like it, so you slip past LOLER. See Paras 31 and 32 of L113 "Safe Use of Lifting Equipment", now a free download from HSE books, for justification. But yes, check it when you have the opportunity as it's probably work equipment anyway! And keep a record to justify your check (could this be the case for a few digital photos perhaps?)
TaylorCM  
#4 Posted : 01 February 2010 17:04:08(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
TaylorCM

Many thanks Jim I have been looking at these paras and I guess I just needed someone else to confirm my interpretation.
Canopener  
#5 Posted : 01 February 2010 19:44:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Jim's response seems pretty plausible. Me? I'm just waiting for Del, Rodney and Grandad to post a response!
thanks 1 user thanked Canopener for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 17/02/2021(UTC)
boblewis  
#6 Posted : 01 February 2010 20:03:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Notsure I go with Jim on this asthe exclusions seem to berelated to such as concrete pump boom arms and similar situations. Reg 8(2) states "In this regulation "lifting operation" means an operation concerned with the lifting or lowering of a load." A pulley system is just such equipment although the relatively light (excuse te pun) load and risk assessment will give a smple inspection regime. Evenif LOLER excluded I would tend towards a work equipmettype of inspection regime. Bob
db  
#7 Posted : 02 February 2010 08:10:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
db

Morning all, Might I suggest the following, yes it is a lifting operation (raise, lower, or suspend a load involving a change in height). HOWEVER, in this instance given the circumstance is it, or can it be defined as a domicile?? If so, and with a volunteer operating not as an employee of a company, HASAW can be dissapplied. Then inspect the pulley, and the rope (PM me and I can give criteria for disguard) clear the area below the operation and lower away. But only if its a domicile, without an employee of a company - it becomes a DIY Task. Yours aye DB
jez  
#8 Posted : 02 February 2010 13:43:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jez

Hi, DB - interesting swerve. Aside from the obvious godly domicile, I'm not sure that it would hold as it is a place of work for the clergy and anyone employed to maintain the building. Also, HASAWA applies to volunteers, provided that there is at least one paid employee within the organisation (the church). Although LOLER would apply to the pulley system and suspended load, the spirit of common sense would lead me to agree with a sensible inspection programme of the rope, pulley, anchor points and rope restraint. After all, the result here is knowing that the chandelier is safe to use and won't fall on anyone. Cheers, J
David S  
#9 Posted : 16 February 2021 13:33:22(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
David S

Hi,

I have a similar query.  We have a large central light fitting in a church that can be lowered by electrical hoist. The problem is that the cables, drum and motor assembly are situated high above the light fitting with no easy access. The light fitting is lowered very infrequently, just to replace faulty bulbs. Looking at the LOLER regs it should be be "thoroughly examined at least every 12 months" if  it "is exposed to conditions causing deterioration which is liable to result in dangerous situations" REG 9(3). As it is not exposed to such conditions (in a dry church, away from possible tampering and is used very infrequently so mechanical wear is minimal) can we increase the period between "thorough examinations" to a longer period (say 10 years)? We would still do a yearly visual inspection during our normal H&S annual survey. Are we required to do a thorough examination at all so long as one was done on installation?  

If we need  a thorough examination from an external firm each year the cost implications are considerable. your advice would be of great help.

achrn  
#10 Posted : 16 February 2021 16:45:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: David S Go to Quoted Post

Hi,

I have a similar query.  We have a large central light fitting in a church that can be lowered by electrical hoist. The problem is that the cables, drum and motor assembly are situated high above the light fitting with no easy access. The light fitting is lowered very infrequently, just to replace faulty bulbs. Looking at the LOLER regs it should be be "thoroughly examined at least every 12 months" if  it "is exposed to conditions causing deterioration which is liable to result in dangerous situations" REG 9(3). As it is not exposed to such conditions (in a dry church, away from possible tampering and is used very infrequently so mechanical wear is minimal) can we increase the period between "thorough examinations" to a longer period (say 10 years)? We would still do a yearly visual inspection during our normal H&S annual survey. Are we required to do a thorough examination at all so long as one was done on installation?  

Personally, I don't believe that LOLER applies.  LOLER does not automatically apply to every machine where any part of it goes up and down.  If you haven't already got a copy, get L113 - https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l113.pdf

(This is an aside: if you're not a H&S professional it might be unclear to you what this is, but this book contains three 'tiers' of content -  the regulations is the law, the 'ACOP' is 'approved code of practice', which (roughly) is not law but you need to have a really good justification for not doing it, and guidance is just guidance.  For example, the Highway Code is an ACOP - most of it isn't actually law, but if you don't do what it says, you're likely to be held responsible for any negative consequences.)

In L113 paragraphs 31 to 33 (guidance) shows that not everything that goes up and down is LOLER.  For example, the dentists chair - it's primary purpose is not to raise the patient (raising the patient isn't the goal), it is to position the patient where they need to be so the dentist can work.  Likewise, a roller shutter door rises and falls, but that's not its primary purpose.  I would argue that a motorised light fitting isn't raising a 'load', it's positioning the light fitting to where it can be worked on.

However, this isn't a get-out-of-jail card - note para 33 - PUWER still requires that the equipment be properly maintained. So whether LOLER does apply or not you need some inspection regime - you don't want to drop the light fitting on the congregation. Therefore, LOLER-or-not is probably a bit of an irrelevance (but useful if you're trying to convince a church committee / treasurer / someone to take it seriously).

If the winch is soundly and securely fixed to the supporting structure, and neither supporting structure nor winch are exposed to anything likely to cause them to degrade, in the circumstance described I'd accept a longer period than annual between inspections.  (You say the winch is OK, make sure what supports the winch is likewise sound and not deteriorating or likely to, and that the fixings holding the winch to the  structure are likewise sound and not deteriorating or likely to).

However, I'm not convinced I'd be comfortable with as much as ten years.  If the church is of a mainstream UK denomination, you probably already have a quinquennial premises inspection regime (I know CofE, Methodist and URC all do quinquennials).  I'd tie it into that cycle.

Edited by user 16 February 2021 16:46:51(UTC)  | Reason: spilling

David S  
#11 Posted : 16 February 2021 17:47:12(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
David S

Hi achrn, thanks for the prompt reply. I have a H&S background - just not in this area. The need for a yearly inspection from an external organisation did seem a bit onerous. An annual local inspection with a more formal external inspection at a longer period would enable the risk to be managed, making sure we do not injure the congregation :)   best wishes and thanks for the information.

peter gotch  
#12 Posted : 17 February 2021 10:52:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi David

My understanding is that most churches go to specialist insurance companies.

On the assumption that your church has such an insurer, what do they think?

If this was a new installation you would expect it to be installed so as to facilitate access for future maintenance, examination etc, but you are where you are!

I do think that LOLER applies - it's like a gin wheel on a construction site, with the exceptions that it is permamently attached and has a load that doesn't change. However, I agree with other comments that if LOLER doesn't apply then it needs examination under PUWER.

In either case the interval between inspections needs appropriate consideration. I don't know the age of your church, but if it's Victorian or earlier perhaps the greatest risk is the connection to the building structure - perhaps e.g. some dry rot. This presupposes that the assembly was fit for purpose at the time of installation, i.e. with a suitable factor of safety built in.

Seems to me that you need a discussion with your insurer. There is a strong case for extending the interval between thorough examinations simply due to the risks of access, but against that the potential impact of failure is very severe. May be the insurer would be happy to include within a quinquennial review, when you are likely to need specialist access equipment for other reasons.

Invictus  
#13 Posted : 24 February 2021 22:15:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

use del boy and rodney trotter

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