Rank: Forum user 
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Not so much a question but a starting point for discussion really.
As safety professionals we advise our employers on H&S in all its aspects - but what happens when we are ignored? Yes we may document the advice, we may argue our case profusely - but in the end if the advice is ignored - how do we proceed?
It seems to me if we feel strongly that injury is likely - then we have no other course of action apart from HSE.
Keith
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Rank: Forum user 
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I've always been lucky (maybe not) that my bosses have always listened and acted.
I would need to exhaust all internal options prior to 'whistle-blowing' to the HSE. On one occasion my immediate boss was dragging his feet about an issue that I was concerned about so I gave him a deadline. He continued to stall so I felt obliged to go 'over his head' to his boss who applied appropriate pressure to get things moving.
I, personally, would feel very uneasy about inviting the HSE into such a situation - if I was genuinely working in an organisation where my advice was being ignored (up to the highest level of the organisation) then I'd see it as an untenable situation and would be looking to leave the business.
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Rank: Forum user
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Hi Whilst I would not recommend compromising your morals or ethics perhaps there is another way. Is this a blatant 'I am not going to' or is it that it just keeps getting passed over (whatever it is).. Can you set out your reasons for doing it from another direction - can it improve produciton, quality, reduce sickness absence (I assume you've tried finance and threats)
Can you mobilise others with influence to support you? Other managers etc.
I often think our greatest skill is in sales and marketing and have used some techniques from that area when all else fails.
At some point however you may have to decide - stay or go. Perhaps if they knew you felt this strongly it may assist, but don't give an ultimatum.
Good Luck
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Rank: Forum user 
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It would seem appropriate at the earliest opportunity to re-examine your assumptions and perhaps get someone else with more knowledge and experience to confirm your views - it's not a very common view on here, but don't forget that you might just be wrong!
But if it is proved to be a really a serious situation, lives are at real risk, and you are absolutely certain of your conclusions then some action really is necesary.
That is a very clear moral and professional obligation and one that cannot be met by running away to seek employment elsewhere.
Ian Blenkharn
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ian - you make an intersting point. The IOSH view is that in serious cases you are bound by the Code of Conduct to resign!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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It depends who/what is ignoring you. Is it your line manager if so you can write to him/her and copy in their next in line manager.
If you report to the top person then write to him/her and explain your position is to advise, theirs is to listen, consider and then either take action or ignore.
If the latter then there could be repercussions?
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Rank: Guest
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When I took up my present job I was invited to discuss my job description. I insisted I had the power to stop any job / activity which I considered dangerous or in breach of legislation. This was accepted and forms part of my job description.
I invoked this power some 3 years ago and closed down a teaching department in a school until such time as the hazards and risks had been resolved. I was not penalised in anyway.
Perhaps this is the way to go for you guys and gals who are experiencing problems when your advice is ignored.
Joe
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Rank: Forum user
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Phil
That may be a very sensible thing to do, but if that is all that is done I do not believe that the moral and professional obligations could have been met.
You save your own skin, but what then? One could, and should, do much better than run away from a problem.
It can be very difficult indeed for individuals to make a stand but simply resigning as if to walk away from an insurmountable problem and do nothing more strikes me as a most unprofessional stance and one that certainly does not impress. I imagine that the Courts would, and possibly should, crucify any professional who did no more.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ian - I think you mistook my post and feel that we are on much the same wavelength, I don't see that resigning (running away) is likley to be good for you, the employer, the employees or even IOSH. I have made a lengthy response/retort to the IOSH article which referred to the possibility of resigning. For the article see http://www.iosh.co.uk/ne...ember_news/hot_seat.aspx abd for my rresponse/retort see http://forum.iosh.co.uk/...spx?g=posts&t=92909. I have also received a more 'private' reply from the IOSH ethical practice manager.
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Rank: Forum user
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This is a difficult subject and a hard place to be for any employee. My view is well recorded in previous posts. But in essence the HSE/LA dependant on your sector are there to help. I would always suggest that this option is better than putting your job at risk as there is protection available when "whistle blowing"
Also if you are a member of IOSH, as Phil has suggested there are "code of conduct" issues to consider
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Rank: Super forum user 
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As a Company HS Advisor / Manager I have never seriously considered contacting the HSE. I have always found other ways, and on a few occassions accept that my initial view was not correct.
NB HS Advisors are human
TU HS Reps have another route to take.
They are elected by the members of the TU and as such should report any such problems to their branch. If the opinion of the TU Branch is of the same opinion that there is a substantial risk of serious injury that is not being tackled by management then they can ask the TU Regional or National Officials to get involved.
Steve
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Rank: Forum user
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Steve i would agree all other ways should be exhausted first. But as a last resort in my view it would be a better option to inform the relivent enforcement agency rather than putting your income at risk.
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Rank: Forum user 
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depends how serious it is I guess, theres hte PIDA Act, more commonly known as the whistle blowers act. As long as you meet the 5 criteria for making a disclosure then itll all be cool. Dont think youd be the most popular if you went straight in for the kill though with this disclosure but depends on how serious it is.
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Rank: Guest
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As someone who was in such a situation, all I can say it is a judgement call. In my case, my concerns planted enough of a seed of doubt to put the dangerous practice on hold. I also kept the pressure up, reminding the managers of the consequences that could happen. I debated whether to call the HSE or not, in the end I didn’t have too, as finally the issue was resolved.
I had been the company H&S rep previously, but stepped down as I was pursuing a full time H&S position. Still felt duty bound to act and I’m glad I did.
Funny thing is though; I got an interview for the position of Quality and Safety Engineer with the company, just awaiting the results. Maybe if I get the position, they just might listen in future.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Phil Rose wrote:Ian - you make an intersting point. The IOSH view is that in serious cases you are bound by the Code of Conduct to resign!
Then what the situation continues and someone still gets hurt. As the saying goes 'there is always one way to skin a cat' If you have exhausted all avenues then maybe the only way forward is to inform the HSE, the odds are they will know that the report has come from you so inform them that this is what you will have to do.
Next time I come up against a serious case I must remember to resign under the IOSH code of conduct. I am unable to see where it also points out that IOSH will continue to pay your bills until you find a new job.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I doubt whether a practitioner worth his salts has not come across some moral or legal dilemma at some point their career. Experience is a great asset when dealing with such matters. Each individual case will have to be judged on its own facts. Resigning may be an option, but generally far too drastic and it does not normally resolve the conflict. If it is a case of 'serious and imminent danger', then I believe it is incumbent for the practitioner to go the 'extra mile' - whatever that may be.
The IOSH Code of Conduct is primarily designed to ensure professional integrity by individual members and not a tool for moral dilemmas. That said, I have cited the CoC in the past when I was asked by a senior manager to 'doctor' an incident report I had written for a client. I refused, of course, to alter my version. What the client ended up with I do not know. Alas, job preservation does come into the equation.
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Rank: Forum user
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Good afternoon all,
I have read the above with interest, my industry (and my companies role within it) regularly confronts clients who routinely ignore our recommendations if they find our results to be not safe to use. As the owner of the equipment we are required to return the equipment to its owner whether safe or unsafe. Indeed some fixed assets have to be left in situ.
There is nothing more gauling than the possibility that dangerous equipment will be used again.
Most of the time though you get a feeling that you may ber ignored, especially when it comes to R.A.M.S./S.S.W - this is the time I reach for the I phone (other smart phones available) and either
a. Compose an e-mail to my local HSE Office (Template in the phone on MSN)
b. Show the client the mobile number for the HSE Inspector saying " I'll Just see what the HSE say about that for you ..."
People tend to take it onboard then.
If your right - suck it up and escalate it!. I've lost customers occasionally. but who needs clients who will deliberately ignore recommendations from a professional??
Yours aye
DB
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Rank: Super forum user
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Even the Chief Executive Officer in a business fails to get his own way all of the time, some times he changes his / her mind after reasonable discussion / consultation.
One of our key skills as professionals is the ability to influence people, if we cannot influence we should resign.
Where there is imminent risk of serious injury then we should be able to recognise that and influence the senior manager into taking some reasonable action.
We should not promote calling the HSE as a profession except in exceptional circumstances, and when every other avenue has been explored if we are to become an important part of the business.
Steve
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Rank: Super forum user
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Not the first time that I have had to eat some 'humble pie', but here goes.
The statement that I made in #6 was factually incorrect. The IOSH Code of Conduct does NOT require members to resign, nor have I received any advice to that effect and apologise if I gave that impression.
That statement was (incorrectly) based on an IOSH article, which you can find at http://www.iosh.co.uk/ne...ember_news/hot_seat.aspx
Having spoken in person to the IOSH Ethics Officer, I feel that we both have a greater understanding of the issues raised by the article to which I have referred. I would also suggest that if anyone does have any moral/ethical dilemmas associated with their work/membership to contact Simon directly. He was most helpful!
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