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rpj  
#1 Posted : 03 May 2010 12:29:54(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
rpj

Whose idea was this election poll? I dare say that it makes sense to someone at IOSH, but I found Q1 confusing enough not to bother going any further (I have a living to earn). But I should not have to work so hard at voting in a poll. For instance what does the first part of the question mean: "Does your party think we have the right health and safety legislation?" Whose party? I don't have a party, I vote for a party (often tactically) as I don't feel any of them truly represent my views. If you mean 'which party' why not say it?

Is this a poll or a forum for suggestions? Asking an additional question ("If not, what changes should there be?") just added to the lack of clarity. The response required to this question is not appropriate to the 'poll' format.

And what do the pie charts mean? Are they the results of members' who a) think they have a party and b) read the lengthy text below the question and extracted enough information from it to make a simple choice. Did they then vote for the party whose statement they liked the best? Or was there the chance to vote Yes or No for each party? Or each statement?

Seems to me that constructing and participating in this poll is an exercise for people with time on their hands.

But I may have got this all wrong and it is clear and concise and makes sense. In the spirit of fairness, if someone can explain this to me in a couple of sentences, (which is all a poll should take) please do.

colinreeves  
#2 Posted : 03 May 2010 13:35:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

I thought it was clear enough.

The questions were sent to each party in the poll, hence "your party" was the correct terminology.

The individual party responses were shown and each member who wished to could choose the party whose answer was their favourite.

As the advert goes "simples"!

My only concern was that the largest national party, UKIP, was excluded so the poll is not representative!
rpj  
#3 Posted : 03 May 2010 14:00:59(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
rpj

Thanks Colin. I did not realise that the question was directed to the parties. Where does it say that?

I seem to recall that recent stories of the Torys cutting the burden that H&S places on small businesses have been met with feelings ranging from distrust to downright hostility by IOSH members generally. Maybe I was reading selectively, but I do not recall any articles or news stories in SHP etc in support of their position. I wonder if the results (which seem to indicate that the Tory's have the most popular stance in Q1) say more about the political affiliations of the IOSH membership?

Afraid I am not familiar with the advert which goes 'simples!' but I do not have a TV so that may explain it.

And finally, I did not know that UKIP was the largest national party in the UK - what a frightening thought.
colinreeves  
#4 Posted : 03 May 2010 14:02:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

RPJ wrote:

And finally, I did not know that UKIP was the largest national party in the UK - what a frightening thought.


Oops, largest UK national party NOT represented in the poll!
stevegrimes  
#5 Posted : 03 May 2010 14:11:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
stevegrimes

and i thought it was just trade unions that like to meddle
i am tending to think that iosh is having ideas above its station, getting to big for its boots the "chartership" aspect seems to have gone to too many peoples heads.

yes the questions were steeped in ambiguity

whats the saying lies damn lies and statistics?

just vote for "sensible safety" vote for David. there are far far far greater issues for this country than elf and safety.

like erm erm the national debt.

get things in context H&S is a small fish in a big pond
rpj  
#6 Posted : 03 May 2010 14:19:37(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
rpj

Hi Mike

Not sure about about "sensible safety - vote David", well I am acually, not with wild horses and red-hot pokers.

As for H&S being a small fish in a big pond - you may be right, but much of that is because we don't kill, maim and poison many people in the workplace anymore. Now all we have to do is answer the question: How did we manage to reduce deaths, injuries and ill health? It certainly wasn't due to a sudden outbreak of humanitarianism and altruism among employers...
Al.  
#7 Posted : 03 May 2010 22:38:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Al.

RPJ wrote:

Now all we have to do is answer the question: How did we manage to reduce deaths, injuries and ill health? It certainly wasn't due to a sudden outbreak of humanitarianism and altruism among employers...


The manufacturing sector declined and the accident rates improved as people moved into lower risk jobs.

So moving on........Rather than being made in the UK, stuff is now made in countries where unit labour costs are lower and standards of safety are often lower too. So imported goods are cheaper than home made ones but there is a price in that it likely that more injuries will have been caused in their manufacture than if they had been made in the UK. (Something is flawed with the argument in these two sentences but I cannot quite see it.)
rpj  
#8 Posted : 04 May 2010 13:50:12(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
rpj

When I was studying for H&S qualifications it was apparent how H&S safety legislation was greatly biased towards employees working in manufacturing industry (and for very good reasons). It was particularly noticeable to me as I work in the mostly self-employed leisure industry and kept having to find ways to interpret legislation to my situation. The considerable improvement I have seen in the accident stats for large scale outdoor public events has little to do with a change in the type of work, and a lot to do with the change of culture within the industry. And I expect many other ‘fringe’ areas of activity, of which I know little, have also come inside ‘the safety tent’.

When I started in the music business in the early 1970s people died on the road quite regularly. The died from electrocution, any number of poor working practices including incorrect use of (often improvised) work equipment, or the effects of a relaxed attitude to drungs and drinking at work. One major killer was road deaths, often caused by outrageous tour planning with gigs in Cornwall one day, Glasgow the next and back to London on the third – anyone remember the band Asleep at the Wheel? Many of these insane practices have stopped now as the industry has been gathered into the fold of those that take safety seriously and apply the legislation. It is now quite common for bands doing the stadium touring circuit to have safety officers overseeing the get-ins and get-outs. And most venues have strict H&S regimes. Many of my former colleagues, long since dead, would have hated it, but might still be around - albeit as sad old rockers.

So I doubt the overall improvement can all be put down to the decline of manufacturing industry and a move to lower-risk jobs, though that will obviously account for some of it. I would have thought that the massive increase in the use of electrical equipment, road travel, increased pressure to reach targets, more entrepreneurs, more cowboys, short term profit , incoming labourers from countries with lower safety standards etc. would have helped push the accident rate up again. The sensible application of H&S legislation helps keep these other negative forces in check. We reduce the importance of coming home alive from work at our peril. Here endeth the sermon (maybe…)
jwk  
#9 Posted : 05 May 2010 11:13:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Agree with RPJ's points and his political sentiments, as it happens. However, are we quite sure that deaths at work have reduced? Sure, there are fewer people falling into rolling mills or being killed by underground explosions, we do a lot less of the type of work that exposes people to these risks. And yes, the construction culture is better. But do we actually know what the death rate is, or has ever been? I mean, more people now drive for work than ever before, and we have some idea that between 500 and 1,500 people at work die on the roads each year (estimates vary wildly). What was the figure 20 years ago? Nobody knows because nobody was counting, and even now the count is so far from accurate as to be useless,

John
Clairel  
#10 Posted : 05 May 2010 15:08:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

I really hope that people on here have the sense to take into consideration more than just H&S politics when they vote.

As it happens I would appear to disagree with majority of the people who have voted on these IOSH polls. Nothing new there then!
Clairel  
#11 Posted : 05 May 2010 15:11:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Actually I take back what I said, I hadn't seen the results for a while and the results seem to have swung, so rather suprisingly I more in the majority now!!! ;-)

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