Rank: Guest 
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The Retail and Distribution Group are hosting a webinar on Monday 24 May to debate the topic of gritting which caused a number of threads on this forum following the snowfall in winter. The event is FREE – all you need to do is register before the start of the session to receive your event password. You can join from anywhere in the world as long as you have access to a computer, a phone and your webinar password – it’s that simple. We have two speakers lined up who will set the scene from the legal and insurance sides who will present for about ten minutes each and then the on-line Q&A session will open and anyone can submit their question forward for the panel’s opinion. We hope you can join in! Further information and how to register are available on: http://www.iosh.co.uk/gr...o_grit_or_not_to_gr.aspx
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Rank: Super forum user
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I advise two different sporting organisations that operate in identical areas in different parts of the country. Both completed 'gritting' risk assessments and thereafter 1 gritted the other 1 did not
The company that gritted [they undertook a good sensible course of action] were claimed against and lost the court case. The 1 that did not grit have yet to have a claim made against them but to date have saved a lot of cash by not gritting!
You are dammed if you do and potentially dammed if you do not!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Bob
It is a ridiculous state of affairs where one organisation grits, as common sense would dictate, and gets penalised and another does not. Councils grit main roads and other sensitive areas, but does not have the resources to grit every road and pavement in the borough. The Court should have shown some good sense in the matter. The HSE should take up the guantlet by providing guidance which will encourage duty holders to be proactive and lessen the chance of litigation for responsible organisations.
I can't believe we are now having a webinar, whatever that is, to discuss gritting - ye Gods, what next!
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Rank: Forum user
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Ray, our aim is to hold a webinar (yes there is such a thing) to provide our retailer members with an authoritative view on the civil liability issues surrounding the gritting of public (not workplace) car parking areas. You may recall that IOSH became embroiled in an argument with some national papers on the subject, see http://www.iosh.co.uk/ne...h_gritting_guidance.aspxGiven HSE’s other priorities I do not see them queuing up to provide additional guidance on something that comes under local authority or police control, over and above http://www.hse.gov.uk/slips/faq.htm#icyconditions. Whilst useful to an employer this doesn’t quite hit the spot for retailers. This is the first time we have held a webinar (hence it is free this time). It has a number of advantages for our members, such as the fact it is short and punchy (no more than an hour), it does not involve hours of travel to a venue, if deemed irrelevant you can log off without embarrassment and, most importantly, you don’t have to look at me. I agree it is a strange time of year to be holding a discussion about snow and ice, however this way it will give our members plenty of time to prepare for next winter. Sean Cusack Chair - Retail & Distribution Group
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Rank: Super forum user
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"an authoritative view on civil liability issues"
I'm sorry but what authority?
IOSH is a professional body but holds no authority.
Do you think that a company will be able to stand up in court and say "...ahhh, but on IOSH's webinar they said.....".
Civil liability is taken on a case by case basis and the results of an IOSH webinar mean nothing in that process. The HSE haven't taken a stance on it for a reason. Because gritting should be on a case by case basis. There is no legal benchmark on whether to grit or not.
Ultimately as others have said companies will be damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Health and safety already has a bad enough reputation without someone getting wind of this waste of time.
I rarely post here nowadays but reading of this webinar has really got my head in my hands in despair.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Well we could have one on splitting hairs!
I think this is a good initiative on a subject that has caused much debate during the past winter in the UK. Sharing experience, practice and hearing expert view is surely a useful activity. Whether you feel the subject worthy or not, it is nonetheless a subject.
And to go back to splitting hairs, one good definition of authorative might be "reliable: convincing, reliable, backed by evidence, and showing deep knowledge."?? Just a view from the other side as usual
p48
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Rank: Super forum user
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Most Health and Safety Professionals should be aware that civil law decisions are based on case by case basis, but precedence can also play a role.
However, it is a positive step to get input from "experts" who deal with civil law-surely that has to be a good thing rather than depending upon second/third -hand information that could have its primary message "lost in translation".
After all, we keep on getting this question most winters in this forum.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Sean
Thanks for responding to my post. I am aware of the perpetual issues with gritting and the recent spat regarding IOSH/SHP guidance on the subject. If I can manage the software issues I may join in the webinar, but being something of a Luddite that may be a problem in itself!
For the current discussion, there is a statutory duty for employers to ensure the safety of employees and to ensure their undertaking does not present a risk to others. Therefore leaving areas poorly or ungritted is arguably a criminal offence. Notwithstanding this, I cannot see the regulators prosecuting anyone, unless of course, someone slips on a railway platform, falls under a train and is killed. Then watch this space!
Rather, the issue is predominately a civil issue as per the tort of negligence and OLA. I agree that cases of negligence would be determined on the material facts as opposed to any case precendent. I fail to see any good argument why an orginsation would deliberately adopt a no gritting policy for the aforementioned reasons. The bottom line is the reliance on the judiciary to show some good judgement. Sadly there is no evidence that this is the case.
Finally, whilst I aprreciate gritting may be a burning issue for those in the retail sector, I am nevertheless ambivalent towards this subject becoming a high profile matter. Is it I wonder indicative of where we are in society and the world of health and safety? I hope not.
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Rank: New forum user
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Clearly gritting is an issue in many ares, not just Retail and while we know that in the end the courts decide whether or not a duty holder has got it right or not, I don't see any harm (and there may be much good) in IOSH setting up a webinar for interested parties. It is not compulsory, as I understand it, but for company safety advisors working in care, health and education sectors with large throughput of employees and visitors across large sites it might provide some useful input that will help them to come to a reasoned decision that can be put sensibly to their employers. Personally I think that gritting should be done and this is backed up by the NHS who were overwhelmed with broken bones due to falling on ice. The elderly are at a higher risk of dying as a result of a fall. And I wonder what the overall cost to business and the Welfare State was as a result of a failure to grit?
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Rank: Forum user
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Ray, you say that “Therefore leaving areas poorly or ungritted is arguably a criminal offence.” You say “arguably”, which is one of the points of the webinar. How many criminal prosecutions are you aware of that have arisen in the last few years due to retail car parks being poorly gritted? Maybe if the wording had been “arguably a civil offence” your argument would have been more plausible.
Claire, you question the use of my expression "an authoritative view on civil liability issues" by saying that IOSH is a professional body but holds no authority. I assume you read the agenda before making this comment, in the knowledge that IOSH people were not presenting during the webinar, external civil liability experts are. I am sorry this webinar has really got your head in your hands in despair. I didn’t know people could feel so passionate about an icy car park, good job I didn’t mention the webinar on “why do shop doors that say “push” have door knobs?”
We have a voluntary free webinar for people who would like to expand their knowledge about retail car park civil liability. If it offends anyone’s finer feelings then personally I don’t think it’s me that has the problem.
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