I'm already CMIOSH with quite a lot of H&S experience but to be honest I want to change direction, a new challenge away from general H&S.

Thought about becoming a fire risk assessor but I don't know what I would need to do to become a 'competent' fire risk assessor for a range of premises.

Obviously I am familiar with the Regs and given lots of advice to clients on completeing Fire RA's and how to comply with the guidance etc etc but I don't do them myself. I wouldn't consider myself as competent enough nor an expert.

I personally don't think NEBOSH fire cert would suffice but I'm equally not able to get another degree in fire engineering or anything so anyone know if it's possible and what route I could take / what courses I could take??

Clairel I note what you say about advising but not doing. "Those that can do - those that can't teach" comes to mind.

Have you looked at IFE and their training courses/examminations? There is a path to joining their register of fire risk assessors. It is a long winded and expensive path but something you may enjoy and once on the register you will be considered competent.

You could of course just start to carry our fire risk assessments of small premises and build up as you go along and feel the confidence building.

Hi Clairel

I personally don't think NEBOSH fire cert would suffice but I'm equally not able to get another degree in fire engineering or anything so anyone know if it's possible and what route I could take / what courses I could take??

Are you saying you have a Fire Engineering Degree or are you saying you are not able to complete a degree???

I would be very suprised if this was the case unless of course you are talking about the finacial and time constraints. If that is the case, then I would suggest you think about acheiving corporate membership withthe IFE. Cheaper option but time consuming.

I've heard it on a few forums that people have attended a one day course and can noe carry out a fire risk assessment. personally i thing it is madness i would say that it gives you and understanding what is required for a FRA to be carried out but no more. A few have suggested it is suitable for low fire risks fair enough if you are the responsible person and you are willing to put your name on the assessment but to expect someone attending a ond day course to then be able to write a fire risk assessment i think is wrong.

i would say the NEBOSH fire certificate is getting closer to what is required but even that doesn't refer to all the different guidance documents there are which you will need to know.

Have a look at the fire service college as they run residential courses for the nebsoh course and you can look at adding additional courses like their high life risk premises course which i think is then at a suitable level to be able to carry out fire risk assessment but again you need to work within your skill level.

I teach a one day course to become a fire warden. I don't see how anyone can teach somebody who knows nothing about fire safety in the same time to be able to say they are adequately trained to carry out a fire risk assessment.

There are guidance documents so people can carry out a FRA on low risk premises but I don't think that it will be what they do on the report that will make the difference but the fact the premises are low risk that everyone would hopefully get out safely.

I've recently carried out fire risk assessment recently at two different premises that had recently had H&S consultants in and all failed to pick up even the most basic of fire safety issues that where being missed. From locked fire exit doors to a non-working fire alarm system and lack of training of staff and one of these was at a school with 900 kids.

Phil

If fire risk assessment is so difficult/demanding why do so many local fire and rescue services provide on their websites, free to download fire risk assessment forms - for use by any Tom, Dick, Harry and possibly A N Other general member of the public.

Methinks the overall risk of fire to quite a high proportion of people is pretty low in the workplace.

However, I do agree there are certain industrys and types of building that do require the knowledge of more experienced people.

Jobs for the Boys comes to mind.

I guess if your still learning after 30yrs, in the fire safety world then maybe other professions should be considered...

If the NEBOSH Fire Cert isn't enough knowledge/theory to carry out a FRA - then are NEBOSH/IOSH guilty of mis-selling? Indeed exactly what are NEBOSH/IOSH selling to clients who attend this course?

'Hello Mr Student, its £1000 to do our FRA course' PS don't read the small print in the terms and conditions, but you still might not be competent to be a fire risk assessor, so don't plan on making a living out of this!!

Whatever anyone says on this forum, is just personal opinion. It is for a Court of Law to decide, if someone is competent. If our Lords and Masters in Parliament, in drafting the RRO, decided prescriptive listing of training/membership of professional organisations wasn't necessary to carry out a fire risk assessment - I would say the bleeding hearts on this forum need to lobby their MPs for a change in the law.

Ruffled feathers, by any chance??

Maybe you would like to answer my starting comment - why do so many county fire & rescue services provide free fire risk assessment forms, for anybody to use?

Heather, How do you select the grey highlighting/quotes?

Claire have you thought about Colin Todd Associates? They are the people who wrote PAS 79 and they train fire officers so I guess that makes them credible.

I have nothing to do with them and in fact would be in competition with them but I have to recognise when someone is good at what they do!

ITER

Hmmm....you seem to have the bit between the teeth! In answer to your comments I would say:-

….If fire risk assessment is so difficult/demanding why do so many local fire and rescue services provide on their websites, free to download fire risk assessment forms - for use by any Tom, Dick, Harry and possibly A N Other general member of the public……

The FRS’s provide the templates as part of their efforts to provide the public with fire safety advice. They do not provide the templates on the condition that they be completed by incompetent persons. There is an expectation that those who complete the assessments will be comptent and will know what they are doing.

…..Methinks the overall risk of fire to quite a high proportion of people is pretty low in the workplace…..

Methinks you are correct but this is primarily due to generally high standards of fire safety in the UK when compared with countries in which the incidence of fire deaths is higher than the UK. If you lessen the professional standards then you can expect an increase in the incidence of fire deaths and injuries.

….However, I do agree there are certain industrys and types of building that do require the knowledge of more experienced people……

True, but employees in the smaller ‘simple’ buildings deserve to have good advice and not be left to the ‘cowboys’.

….Jobs for the Boys comes to mind….

By this statement I guess you mean ex-firefighters. I am an ex-firefighter. I am the first to admit that the majority of my learning has been outside of the fire service. Being on the back of the red engine does not make anyone an expert in fire safety but what it does do is make you appreciate the risks that firefighters face when it all goes wrong. Perhaps it is an experience that some non-firefighter fire risk assessors should experience.

….I guess if your still learning after 30yrs, in the fire safety world then maybe other professions should be considered...

This is an incredible statement and clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge of fire safety. Do you know how fire retardants respond at 650C and how this changes at 850C? Do you know if HCN has an additive effect on CO or is it synergistic? Do you realise how important it is? Do you care?. It is one very small areas of fire safety where the knowledge has only relatively recently been discovered. What effect does this have on smoke control? On travel times? on survival rates? I could look at extinguishing mediums, on building construction methods on new materials used in industry…….the list could go on and on. Of course any good fire risk assessor will be trying to keep abreast of their field as they will in any other field of health and safety.

…..If the NEBOSH Fire Cert isn't enough knowledge/theory to carry out a FRA - then are NEBOSH/IOSH guilty of mis-selling? Indeed exactly what are NEBOSH/IOSH selling to clients who attend this course? …..

As a lecturer on the NEBOSH courses I am happy with NEBOSH/IOSH description of enabling individuals to undertake fire risk assessments in most low risk premises, but I would emphasise low risk.

….'And who more often that not, provides such tick-box templates....ermmm!! Of course your friendly local Fire & Rescue Service'…..

What is your point?

I am aware of the Warrington scheme but wonder why they should be considered over the IFE who are a focused fire organisation?

Clairel,

Having completed the NEBOSH health & safety (Construction) and a two week IFE Approved Fire Risk Assessors Course over the past few years, I can confidently say that I feel in no way prepared to provide Fire Risk information to clients in anything other than low risk buildings.

Although over the past year, I have asked everyone that has a pulse and the slightest interest in Fire Risks what to do next, I have definitely been guided towards the UKAS Fire Risk Assessors accreditaton.

Fortunately, I have found this career option very interesting however I have found the course/qualification debate like everything else to do with health and safety - not in the slightest bit straight forward!!

Lobban, I find your honesty very refreshing and am interested to hear your opinion.

There are too many people who attend 5 day training without any knowledge of building construction who seem to hold the opinion that they are fire risk assessors.

Having read many of the replies on this subject, I feel I must point out that ANY risk assessment (Fire or otherwise) requires the input of possibly more than one competent person. Therefore a person qualified in the Nebosh Fire Certificate can employ the assistance and knowledge of employees of the client organisation to assist in the completion of the Fire Risk Assessment. It's all about knowing your limitations and using other people's expertise.

I had a look at the Warrington scheme web site last night and in particular the requirements for the fire risk assessor register.

It all looks very complicated to me and points toward assessments of complex premises only. One requirement is for a review of the assessor after a few years that involves being followed during a live assessment and that must be at least 4 hours.

Most of my fra's are of small premises and there is no way I can spend that time carrying out the assessment.

In view of the majority of my fra's being small fry there is no doubt that I would not be accepted onto the Warrington register.

It all looks to be RICS orientated anyway.

I do have experience of complex assessments but then again 4 hours appears to be a long time to me, on site.

Clairel...

Colin Todd - Really good tip. They also train the Fire Service.

I personnally attended a 4 day Fire Risk Assessors training course with Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service and shadowed and very experienced consultant for the last 6 months of his career before retirement.

Start of with small low risk properties.

Attend practical and theory based FRA training. Again Colin Todd are reputable. Purchase PAS79 and base your FRA on this. I can send you some info if you want.

Don't be put off by all the doom, gloom and debate to you drop merchants.

GC

By the way, when you have spent 23 years in this field come back and talk to me

I was going to respond but I see I don't apparently qualify to do so for another three years...

I have three of the guidance docs - "offices and shops", "sleeping accommodation" and "factories and warehouses".

I need all three as I tend to forget things as as Bleve and I agree we don't know what we don't know.

All three guides state they "give advice on how to avoid fires and how to ensure people's safety if a fire does start".

Further - "it has been written to provide guidance for a responsible person, to help them to carry out a fire risk assessment in less complex (premises) (offices and shops) factories and warehouses)".

They suggest that if in doubt you "should seek help from a competent person", and,

"More complex premises will probably need to be assessed by a person who has comprehensive training or experience in fire risk assessment".

Can we please try and break this down into the requirements i.e.

They give advice on how to avoid fires and how to ensure people's safety if a fire does start - that's all that is required of a fire risk assessment?

How much deeper should we go? Do we really have to consider stuff outside the guidance documents as long as we ensure peoples safety if a fire does start?

Less complex premises - what are less complex premises?

More complex premises - what are they?

A person who has comprehensive training or experience in fire risk assessment - define training - define experience.

I believe in self assessment of myself and have a certain level of "complexity" I will go to before stepping back, as I say "we don't know what we don't know" and that is always at the forefront of my mind when taking on work.

From a personal pespective, much of what has been posted on this thread has left me no clearer as to what I would need to do to become a competent fire assessor of premises (above very low risk premises but not extending to very high risk premises).

I guess that has put me off really. Is that a good thing? I consider my self to be an intelligent and competent (not in the legal sense) person and would probably make a good assessor after training and experience but I have been left feeling that unless I get a fire engineering degree I could never prove my competence.

What the thread has done is raise the competence issue and shown just how blurred the situation is. Which is not a good thing in my opionion. However, as someone else pointed out, the same could be said for general H&S competence issues, which is also repeatedly debated elsewhere on the forum.

Am I the only one that feels that whole situation re:competence is all a bit of a mess?