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Captain Scarlet  
#1 Posted : 19 June 2010 07:06:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

L&G, this is not an attack on our beloved HSE requirements, it is basically something to get you thinking. Where I work, and the clients I work for, always require that all of our vehicles at a minimum come up to the OGP guideline “365 - Land Transport”, which I think is a good starter document (minimum requirement), until we get to “vehicle requirements”, which states that each vehicle must have a first aid kit, torch, and fire extinguisher. I have never heard of, or seen reported, the need for a first aid kit, torch, or fire extinguisher. They are an unnecessary expense, in respect they need a monthly check, they need replacing, they get stolen, an FA kit as is deadly as a gun in the wrong hands, and the real pain of what should be in an FA kit anyway? I have to ask myself why, and I have stood my corner with clients during start up audits, but always end up shelling out for this equipment. I know that in the contract it is stated that we will meet the document minimum requirements, and we always do so, under duress. Up to the subject title, does anyone else have the same conundrum, where a it appears there are HSE “necessities” that are based on a tradition, that cannot be logically proven to be necessary, but still remain in place?
Clairel  
#2 Posted : 19 June 2010 09:25:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

The need for a first aid kit, torch and fire extinguishers have nothing to do with tradition. They come down to assessment and therefore what type of 'vehicle' and what type of 'job' they are doing. Is there a risk of injury (even minor cuts from handling packages). Is there a risk of fire (hazardous substances or even vehicle fire). Is there a risk of being out at night and needing a torch (break downs). I think you have one obvious ommission. A hi-viz jacket in case of breakdown. Personally in my own car I carry torch, first aid, hi-viz and fire extinguisher. I think if you are on the road for any reason whether work or personal then all those things can be justified and are relatively inexpensive and can be included on regular vehicle checklists for work purposes. As for a first aid kits being as deadly as a gun in the wrong hands - you need to get a sense of perspective mate!!!! When was a plaster and bit of bandage as deadly as a gun ??? The Department for Transport in conjunction with the HSE do a great information leaflet INDG382 on driving at work, which is the standard to be followed.
chris.packham  
#3 Posted : 19 June 2010 10:58:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Have I missed the bit about the warning triangle? Incidentally, in many European countries the legal requirement is for the first aid kit, warning triangle (in some its actually 2), high viz jackets for all occupants (in one country the driver's must be in the car where he/she can don it before getting out). I carry a fire extinguisher myself. I was in a colleagues car once when it overturned. Hearing petrol running out and being unable to open any door was scary! Ever tried breaking a car window when upside down and with your bare hands? The fire extinguisher was used to break the windscreen, so where to you think mine is kept! Incidentally, when taking my driving test in Germany many, many years ago I had to do a first aid course as part of the training. Chris
Canopener  
#4 Posted : 19 June 2010 12:08:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I am not entirely sure where you are coming from, and I have to say that a first aid kit, hi vis etc all seems pretty sensible and reasonable to me. But I have to agree with Claire (I don't always) about the first aid kit. As deadly as a gun?!!! Your first aid kits much be radically different to mine!
imwaldra  
#5 Posted : 19 June 2010 15:27:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
imwaldra

Remember that the OGP Guide was developed for the exploration & production sector of the oil & gas industry. Many such vehicles will be operating in developing countries, off-road, etc. Where they are used in developed economies, they will often be driven in rural locations on a 24/7 basis by lone workers, and also be their 'base' whilst working. I suspect this is the background to the fairly detailed list of required emergency equipment. As others have said, you could use that as a starting point, but then carry out an associated risk assessment (of course with participation from some of your vehicle users) to consider what is appropriate in your specific work.
Captain Scarlet  
#6 Posted : 19 June 2010 19:41:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

Clairel wrote:
The need for a first aid kit, torch and fire extinguishers have nothing to do with tradition. They come down to assessment and therefore what type of 'vehicle' and what type of 'job' they are doing. Is there a risk of injury (even minor cuts from handling packages). Is there a risk of fire (hazardous substances or even vehicle fire). Is there a risk of being out at night and needing a torch (break downs). I think you have one obvious ommission. A hi-viz jacket in case of breakdown. Personally in my own car I carry torch, first aid, hi-viz and fire extinguisher. I think if you are on the road for any reason whether work or personal then all those things can be justified and are relatively inexpensive and can be included on regular vehicle checklists for work purposes. As for a first aid kits being as deadly as a gun in the wrong hands - you need to get a sense of perspective mate!!!! When was a plaster and bit of bandage as deadly as a gun ??? The Department for Transport in conjunction with the HSE do a great information leaflet INDG382 on driving at work, which is the standard to be followed.
Clairel: You forgot to consider the bit "Where I work". I did mention that there has never been a need (the need would be derived from a thorough risk assessment), and the cost of replacing the items far outweighs the requirement to have them. To have these items "just in case" is not the correct approach. So working on the factor frequency X severity, the risk factor is minimal. So going back to the good old days of "safety" these would have been a good idea only, hence tradition. First aid kits = bandages = torniquet = lethal. Or from another perspective, what good would a sticking plaster, or bandage do anyway, except perhaps stop blood getting on your seat, or carpet, and what do you consider a complete first aid kit? Fire extinguishers...All of our vehicles are diesel, simply to remove the risk of fire from petrol in hot sandy conditions. So the items I refer to still appear as tradition.
jay  
#7 Posted : 20 June 2010 13:27:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

In my view and in the context of "so far as is reasonably practicable" when driving for work-related activities:- 1) The contents and type of first aid kit is dependent upon the activities, and yes, if working alone, a level of first aid training on the self application of aspects of first aid may be applicable, there is no prescribed criteria-that is why we "risk assess" and most will judge that the cost of a first aid kit for an employee is reasonably practicable. If tradition was maintained for all manner of safety, we would still be practicing the 19th century industrial revolution health, safety and welfare requirements. 2) I consider fire extinguishers in vehicles primarily to assist escape if the vehicle is on fire. Also, diesel will vaporise/burn at temperatures the engine operates (agree it will be very much less than petrol) and depending upon the nature of the fire, fire extinguishers may be required. However, I agree that tender agreements etc prescribing safety requirements without qulifying it with risk assessment is questionable. How many actual accidents occur with objets falling on workers wearing hard hats? does that mean that traditionally ,we did not use hard hats so that is OK?? To a construction company that has thousands of workers, is it reasonably prcaticable (just because that particaular company did not experience such occurences) not to use hard hats because it will cost them an amount of money??
DavidWarby  
#8 Posted : 20 June 2010 23:32:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidWarby

In the industries I work (mining & construction in Australia) it is considered "good practice" to carry all of the above (except high-vis vests, as high-viz clothing is mandatory on most sites anyway) in all vehicles for a variety of reasons and I have seen, and personally experienced, good cause for all of them. First aid kits: Having a first aid kit in the vehicle not only ensures that the necessary basics are available in the event of a vehicle accident but also during day-to-day works since the vehicle will generally be kept reasonably close to the worksite. Fire extinguisher: Yes, there is a lower risk of fire in diesel engines but I have still seen a few engine bay fires caused by electrical wires breaking & shorting along with fires in vehicles trays caused by sparks from welding/cutting operations nearby Torch: Just common sense really... As others have said, I carry all of these in my own vehicle and consider the expense negligble considering the life-saving potential... My 2c -Dave
Captain Scarlet  
#9 Posted : 21 June 2010 06:41:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

Dave: From a common sense approach I can relate to the placement of the mentioned items. My bone of contention here is from a business perspective, the items in question are more trouble than they are worth, thus defeating my goal to provide solutions, and prevent loss. The reason for this is, is the FA kits F/ext's / torches, are continually stolen, and always let us down when a client does a random 5 vehicle check, as drivers will repeatedly just tick the "complete" box for their FA kits / F/ext's / Torches, when they are not there let alone not full or charged. It is a full time job to for one person to repeatedly check these items. Even as our guys will travel alone in extremely remote areas, for hours at end, we are always in touch with them via vehicle tracking / Thurya. The drivers stop every 1.5 hours and call the journey co-ordinator.... this side of things is all catered for brilliantly. Thanks to all for your input, I reman convinced that these items are sticking on the list because the shakers and the movers are too frightened to commit to removing them, just in case, and contract lawyers are feared of exposing themselves for what they really are.
Captain Scarlet  
#10 Posted : 21 June 2010 06:48:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

jay wrote:
In my view and in the context of "so far as is reasonably practicable" when driving for work-related activities:- 1) The contents and type of first aid kit is dependent upon the activities, and yes, if working alone, a level of first aid training on the self application of aspects of first aid may be applicable, there is no prescribed criteria-that is why we "risk assess" and most will judge that the cost of a first aid kit for an employee is reasonably practicable. If tradition was maintained for all manner of safety, we would still be practicing the 19th century industrial revolution health, safety and welfare requirements. 2) I consider fire extinguishers in vehicles primarily to assist escape if the vehicle is on fire. Also, diesel will vaporise/burn at temperatures the engine operates (agree it will be very much less than petrol) and depending upon the nature of the fire, fire extinguishers may be required. However, I agree that tender agreements etc prescribing safety requirements without qulifying it with risk assessment is questionable. How many actual accidents occur with objets falling on workers wearing hard hats? does that mean that traditionally ,we did not use hard hats so that is OK?? To a construction company that has thousands of workers, is it reasonably prcaticable (just because that particaular company did not experience such occurences) not to use hard hats because it will cost them an amount of money??
Jay: Contract conditions are basically job lot clauses anyway, we always say yes, and my manager inevitably always ends up trying to squeeze every penny from a project.... As they say if things don't change they will stay the same. Your hard hat analogy is spot on, if I applied the same arguments as I am now then yes we could do away with hard hats, lets be honest though, a little knock to the head in the wrong (or right) place can still kill, thus a hard hat would prevent the accident escalating from a minor reortable incident to a full on catastrophic incident. A first aid kit is a mitigating measure, that affords very little, considering you could use other similar materials readily available that would do the job items in a first aid kit would do. Either way in the event of a need for first aid, the injury is always going to be a reportable "light" incident. Thanks
Invictus  
#11 Posted : 21 June 2010 07:25:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Chris.Packham wrote:
Have I missed the bit about the warning triangle? Incidentally, in many European countries the legal requirement is for the first aid kit, warning triangle (in some its actually 2), high viz jackets for all occupants (in one country the driver's must be in the car where he/she can don it before getting out). I carry a fire extinguisher myself. I was in a colleagues car once when it overturned. Hearing petrol running out and being unable to open any door was scary! Ever tried breaking a car window when upside down and with your bare hands? The fire extinguisher was used to break the windscreen, so where to you think mine is kept! Incidentally, when taking my driving test in Germany many, many years ago I had to do a first aid course as part of the training. Chris
Where is your extinguisher kept? I thought the idea of the extinguisher was to control a fire or have I missed something. You where upside down in a car and managed to get the extinguisher, swing it to break the windscreen and get out, so now you carry one just in case the car overturns and you need to break the windscreen, do you then throw out the first aid kit in case you need treatment, the hi viz vest so you can be seen and the triangles so no one else runs into you. I carry nothing if the car needs to be put out then I would run like hell and claim on the insurance because that's why I pay it.
teh_boy  
#12 Posted : 21 June 2010 08:16:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

Captain scarlet wrote:
, an FA kit as is deadly as a gun in the wrong hands, and the real pain of what should be in an FA kit anyway?
Or in the right hands (like a gun) can save a life - I recently stopped at an RTA with an overturned vehicle - (As Chris points out this is a terrifing situation for the person trapped inside.) Luckily for me (St John Ambulance Advanced First Aider) and partner (Nurse) the policeman was carring a trauma kit with airways and oxygen. He had no idea how to use this, esspeically on a 13 year old child, luckily we did. My first aid kit turned out not to overly useful, apart from the gloves, water and biowaste bags, but the policemans was (Apparentyl the police do not carry these kits as standard, this is just something he had inherited)
Clairel  
#13 Posted : 21 June 2010 09:18:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

You know what I find this whole attitude towards first aid kits etc quite wrong. I carry first aid kits in my car, my rucksack and also in my house. Proportionally they get used very little but they do get used. The ones in my car are not there to save a life (the one in my rucksack could - but luckily never has had to). However, the most common need for a first aid kit is to stop blood getting everywhere and also to clean up a wound to prevent future infection and prevent further debris getting in. If you have a problem with employees stealing first aid kits and torches etc then you have a personnel issue. It takes little man power to check the first aid kit/extinguisher/torch/hi-viz becuase the employees should be doing that. Again if not then you have a personnel issue. You don't say oh well we don't provide them with hard hats or safety shoes becuase they keep stealing them do you???? Fire extinguishers are a debateable issue. Torches are IMO sensible however first aid kits and hi viz are essential. Your attitude about it not being a sensible on a business need basis does not sit well with me Scarlet.
Thundercliffe26308  
#14 Posted : 21 June 2010 09:27:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Thundercliffe26308

The Drivers should be completeing a daily check list and the "items" should be placed on the check list...thereby identifying where/when the "loss" occurs. There are guidelines within "CPC" information...i would look at this logically and if it has been the norm......and you decide that it is to be changed...you may have to defend your decision in the event of an incident
grim72  
#15 Posted : 21 June 2010 09:54:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

I wasn't sure on the type of business/circumstances you were relating to but if you are transporting dangerous goods etc then you would be required to have a fire extinguisher under ADR Regs. Likewise if you have drivers that are going through Europe at all then a hi-vis jacket and warning triangle should be provided. I know of someone that wqas fined for not wearing a hivis vest on the roadside when he broke down on holiday in France. He was actually getting a warning triangle and vest out of his boot at the time but was told he should have had them inside the car. It might have just been the fact he was English mind?
Captain Scarlet  
#16 Posted : 21 June 2010 10:37:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

teh_boy wrote:
Captain scarlet wrote:
, an FA kit as is deadly as a gun in the wrong hands, and the real pain of what should be in an FA kit anyway?
Or in the right hands (like a gun) can save a life - I recently stopped at an RTA with an overturned vehicle - (As Chris points out this is a terrifing situation for the person trapped inside.) Luckily for me (St John Ambulance Advanced First Aider) and partner (Nurse) the policeman was carring a trauma kit with airways and oxygen. He had no idea how to use this, esspeically on a 13 year old child, luckily we did. My first aid kit turned out not to overly useful, apart from the gloves, water and biowaste bags, but the policemans was (Apparentyl the police do not carry these kits as standard, this is just something he had inherited)
teh_boy: What you speak of in this incident is really not similar to my point. I am talking about a simple first aid kit, a selection of cotton bandages (which surprisingly enough would still be used as a tourniquet), gloves, a couple of sticking plasters, a safety pin, blah blah blah, surrounded by a nice pouch with a lovely red crescent on it, to be used in a first aid situation, not a trauma kit. The fact of the matter is this item is useless, clients in an off the record situation agree, but it still remains a historical must in the vehicle, because a document says so.
Captain Scarlet  
#17 Posted : 21 June 2010 10:50:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

Clairel wrote:
You know what I find this whole attitude towards first aid kits etc quite wrong. I carry first aid kits in my car, my rucksack and also in my house. Proportionally they get used very little but they do get used. The ones in my car are not there to save a life (the one in my rucksack could - but luckily never has had to). However, the most common need for a first aid kit is to stop blood getting everywhere and also to clean up a wound to prevent future infection and prevent further debris getting in. If you have a problem with employees stealing first aid kits and torches etc then you have a personnel issue. It takes little man power to check the first aid kit/extinguisher/torch/hi-viz becuase the employees should be doing that. Again if not then you have a personnel issue. You don't say oh well we don't provide them with hard hats or safety shoes becuase they keep stealing them do you???? *** No we don't say that at all because firstly who mentioned these items get stolen? *** Hard hats, safety boots, NOMEX coveralls, are all proven to be important prevention measures, that WILL reduce the escalting facts of an incident. A first aid kit MAY be a mitigating factor, but not to a degree where it will reduce the risk level from an unacceptable situation to a tolerable situation. Perhaps you disagree because you are so much attached to the idea of having FA kits and never considered life without them?
Clairel  
#18 Posted : 21 June 2010 10:50:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Scarlet you are wrong a basic first aid kit is not useless (and anything could be used as a tourniquet not just what someone found in a first aid kit and so your argument about it being potentially dangerous is nonsense) Your attitude towards first aid is quite staggering.
Clairel  
#19 Posted : 21 June 2010 10:52:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Originally Posted by: captain scarlet *** No we don' Go to Quoted Post
YOU said in your first post that they were getting stolen.
bleve  
#20 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:28:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bleve

CS OGP Guideline 365, clearly states that the application of any of the recommendations relating to land transport are dependent on the outcome of risk assessment. Having said that, it seems that where it is a Clients requirement, then its a clients requirement.
philb  
#21 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:37:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philb

Captain scarlets first post "I know that in the contract it is stated that we will meet the document minimum requirements, and we always do so, under duress". If you've signed up to a client requirement then thats it - you are not under duress you didnt have to sign the contract. Have I missed something?
Captain Scarlet  
#22 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:43:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

Bleve wrote:
CS OGP Guideline 365, clearly states that the application of any of the recommendations relating to land transport are dependent on the outcome of risk assessment. Having said that, it seems that where it is a Clients requirement, then its a clients requirement.
CS: Know 365 inside out, one of my key guideline documents, and think what the OGP are doing for the overseas oil industry is superbloodydooper. And that is the case, the clients requirement is indeed their requirement, but my main point was raising a discusion about historical safety practice that just seems to stick for no apparent reason. A thorough risk assessment would not be influenced by a first aid kit where bits of cloth and sticky tape would do applied by a knowledgeable first aider.
Paul Duell  
#23 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:46:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul Duell

captain scarlet wrote:
... I am talking about a simple first aid kit, a selection of cotton bandages (which surprisingly enough would still be used as a tourniquet), gloves, a couple of sticking plasters, a safety pin, blah blah blah, surrounded by a nice pouch with a lovely red crescent on it...
So what does your first aid risk assessment say SHOULD be in your vehicle FA kits? If what's in there isn't going to be any help, get something that is. Like ClaireL, I've got FA kits in my car, my rucksack and at home, as well as in the work situation, and while I've rarely had to use them, there've been occasions when I was so glad I had them , it made them worth carrying all the time. My kits are all stocked according to my needs - for a start I always chuck out the plasters that come with a new kit, and replace them with useful ones. There's also a couple of non-standard FA items that I've been trained to use, and spares of my prescription meds. The hiking pack also has my partner's spare epipen - because when we're hiking is about the only time she wouldn't have her handbag with her, with the normal one in. Sorry I've rambled a bit with this insight into my personal life, but the point is that any first aid kit needs to contain what will be useful in the situation it's designed to be used.
Paul Duell  
#24 Posted : 21 June 2010 11:49:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul Duell

Oops - to clarify, the workplace first aid kit only contains the items that are standard across all our workplace kits. The non-standard items are locked in my desk for my personal use only!
Captain Scarlet  
#25 Posted : 21 June 2010 12:50:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Captain Scarlet

Clairel wrote:
Originally Posted by: captain scarlet *** No we don' Go to Quoted Post
YOU said in your first post that they were getting stolen.
Clairel: Never once said hard hats and boots were stolen, a rather irrelevant comparison. And is my attitude toward FA kits wrong or challenging to what you hold dear? The whole aim of the thread was to approach what has been historically set as a rule prior to the more forward thinking and developed attitudes toward HSE.
bleve  
#26 Posted : 21 June 2010 12:57:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bleve

With the European move away from prescriptive legislation, there are less cases of historic or rule based HSE requirements. Instead the requirement to provide or not to provide a control measure is dependent on the findings of a risk assessment. I would struggle to think of any HSE requirement purely based on any particular rule or historical rationale.
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