Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
JasonMcQueen  
#1 Posted : 07 July 2010 17:06:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JasonMcQueen

Anyone else getting fed up of closing fire doors during this hot weather? I've tried 'educating' but it goes in one ear and out the other.
Safety Smurf  
#2 Posted : 07 July 2010 17:09:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Hi Jason, Yes, Constantly! Have you tried addressing the problem with the temperature / air flow?
JasonMcQueen  
#3 Posted : 07 July 2010 17:13:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JasonMcQueen

Unfortunatrely due to the building design and age its not really a viable option. Its so hard to put the extinguishers that most seem to use as a door wedge back on the mountings and not just take it away...
firesafety101  
#4 Posted : 07 July 2010 18:51:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Safety Smurf wrote:
Hi Jason, Yes, Constantly! Have you tried addressing the problem with the temperature / air flow?
Don't you dare switch off the sun :-)
Canopener  
#5 Posted : 07 July 2010 19:30:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Have you considered whether electromagnetic devices, either connected to the system or Dorguard as an option?
hammer1  
#6 Posted : 07 July 2010 20:52:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hammer1

Phil Rose wrote:
Have you considered whether electromagnetic devices, either connected to the system or Dorguard as an option?
Seems like a sensible option. Dorguards can cost about 80 quid so will not break bank and are easy to maintain. Portable A/C are an alternative.
messyshaw  
#7 Posted : 07 July 2010 20:59:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

Just turn the heating on in the escape routes and watch them doors close :)
grim72  
#8 Posted : 08 July 2010 08:08:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

Yup, sensible and easy solution is the dorgard option. Great invention.
m  
#9 Posted : 08 July 2010 12:42:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

Whilst door guards are great, either triggered by direct wiring or a microphone, we were advised not to use them into stairwells or other similar routes. Whilst being reliable enough for an outside door they cannot be depended on to close in a fire. Also, consider whether the magnet on the floor will be a trip hazard..
PhilBeale  
#10 Posted : 08 July 2010 13:03:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

m wrote:
Whilst door guards are great, either triggered by direct wiring or a microphone, we were advised not to use them into stairwells or other similar routes. Whilst being reliable enough for an outside door they cannot be depended on to close in a fire. Also, consider whether the magnet on the floor will be a trip hazard..
I can't see any issues using these type of devices on fire doors in particular the elctro magnetic type that are linked to the fire alarms system. You still need to check they function correctly and the door fully closes but this can be done on the weekly fire alarm test. Not seen the type which requires a magnet on the floor the dorguard just has a plunger that retracts and most electro magnetic type have the magnetic unit mounted on the wall normally at the top of the door with a metal plate secured to the door. I've seen both types why carrying out fire risk assessment and so long as they are tested i don't see a problem, better than people wedging them open with fire extinguishers. It certain situation you might not be keen on there use in particularly high life risk premises. but for offices i don't see them as a problem so long of course they have a fire alarm siren in place to ensure the dorguards will activate. Phil
PhilBeale  
#11 Posted : 08 July 2010 13:05:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

m wrote:
Whilst being reliable enough for an outside door they cannot be depended on to close in a fire.
I would say in the vast majority of times an outside door or final exit door should not be fitted with a self closer so the dorguard would do no good any way as there is no self closer to close the door. Phil
messyshaw  
#12 Posted : 08 July 2010 18:37:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

Door holders of all types fitted to doors protecting single staircase buildings are deemed not best practice. Indeed, my local fire authority pursue a policy of non acceptance in such cases. So off come the dorgards and mag door holders and in from stage left appears the wooden wedge or extinguisher to do the job. OK, there is a risk of failure with door holders, but it's got to be better than a wedge isn't it? Isn't it time that the rules re door holders on single stairs were changed? Perhaps a more sensible policy would allow any type of holder on such stairs, except sleeping risks, where only those devices with failsafe operation in a power cut (not dorgards) would be permitted.
stevie40  
#13 Posted : 08 July 2010 19:59:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevie40

PhilBeale wrote:
I can't see any issues using these type of devices on fire doors in particular the elctro magnetic type that are linked to the fire alarms system. You still need to check they function correctly and the door fully closes but this can be done on the weekly fire alarm test.
Electromagnetic hold open devices / doorguards can cause warping in fire resisting door sets if the closing mechanism is exerting sufficient force. I've only seen it happen a couple of times and both of those were in listed hotel buildings. The warp meant that a gap of around 10cm remained when the double doorset was closed - obviously negating any fire / smoke resistance the door was meant to have. Regular bell tests (to close the device) and correct adjustment of the door closure mechanism should prevent this though.
PhilBeale  
#14 Posted : 09 July 2010 12:25:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

stevie40 wrote:
PhilBeale wrote:
I can't see any issues using these type of devices on fire doors in particular the elctro magnetic type that are linked to the fire alarms system. You still need to check they function correctly and the door fully closes but this can be done on the weekly fire alarm test.
Electromagnetic hold open devices / doorguards can cause warping in fire resisting door sets if the closing mechanism is exerting sufficient force. I've only seen it happen a couple of times and both of those were in listed hotel buildings. The warp meant that a gap of around 10cm remained when the double doorset was closed - obviously negating any fire / smoke resistance the door was meant to have. Regular bell tests (to close the device) and correct adjustment of the door closure mechanism should prevent this though.
I believe dorguard now supply a version or as standard that releases at night so the door return back inside it's frame for the very reason you mention. I would have though potentially fire alarm controls panels could be set up to do the same as the most likely risk of fire in spreading and developing undetected would be at night so it would make sense for the doors to be released. as said by messy i would not be keen to see them in sleeping accommodation or on single staircases and would want some form of checking that they are operating correctly. But for the situation mentioned i don't see an issue but better still would be for air cons units to be hired or other steps taken first as these dorguard units aren't that cheap and also there is a risk that they wouldn't just be used during the hot weather but permanently which i think is then reducing the level of passive fire protection for no justifiable reason. Phil
colinreeves  
#15 Posted : 12 July 2010 14:00:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

PhilBeale wrote:
and also there is a risk that they wouldn't just be used during the hot weather but permanently which i think is then reducing the level of passive fire protection for no justifiable reason.
Interesting, different situations, different answers. On board ships over 90% of fire doors are permanently open, held back by magnets connected to the fire alarm system.
Safety Smurf  
#16 Posted : 12 July 2010 14:07:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

colinreeves wrote:
PhilBeale wrote:
and also there is a risk that they wouldn't just be used during the hot weather but permanently which i think is then reducing the level of passive fire protection for no justifiable reason.
Interesting, different situations, different answers. On board ships over 90% of fire doors are permanently open, held back by magnets connected to the fire alarm system.
I take it that on ships the fire doors aren't water tight then?
colinreeves  
#17 Posted : 12 July 2010 14:23:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

Safety Smurf wrote:
I take it that on ships the fire doors aren't water tight then?
You only wrote that to get to super-dooper status ;-)
Safety Smurf  
#18 Posted : 12 July 2010 14:27:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

I'm already super-dooper, my mum said so! But seriously, what happens to the fire doors if the hull is breached?
ocwilliams1  
#19 Posted : 12 July 2010 14:31:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ocwilliams1

Fire doors are the least of your worries if the hull is breached. :-).
colinreeves  
#20 Posted : 12 July 2010 14:44:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

Safety Smurf wrote:
I'm already super-dooper, my mum said so! But seriously, what happens to the fire doors if the hull is breached?
I like OCW's response - correct!! There is a very long answer, but in it's simplest form all ships are divided into compartments. These rise up to the freeboard deck as watertight compartments. In some cases they are penetrated by watertight doors, normally closed at sea. In addition, the hull will have holes in it - doors you drive through on a ro-ro ferry for example. These are also watertight, even though they are above the freeboard deck. Within each of the watertight compartments there may well be fire doors, but these are normally open (have no significant effect on water flow) and operate as do fire doors high in the ship. Can give a longer explanation, but that would be seriously off topic!
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.