Do you know how to do a pre user inspection on a harness and what to look for? Do you know what a lanyard is? Do you know what to anchor the lanyard to when working on the ladder? Do you know if it would withstand your fall, if that were to happen? The management are 100% correct.

I agree with the management decision also. Having people using harnesses that are untrained to do so would not be wise, and as frank has pointed out there are key things to know when using them. May I ask what activities are your staff carrying out on the ladders anyway? and for how long?

It only becomes a safety system when you have had the training to use it safely, mate. Do you know anything about suspension trauma? Any ladder training i have had does not endorse the use of the 'leg lock' on the ladder. All work from ladders should be for work of short duration and light work whilst maintaining three point contact at all times. Might be the wrong piece of kit for the job imo.

A good harness can be made available. Just have the training. There's more to it than just reading the M.I.M otherwise i'd just turn a hose and point it at a fire to put it out! Like i said, you need to be aware of what i said earlier plus suspension trauma, rescue plans, different types of lanyard etc. You cannot knowingly put yourself at risk by using something you have had no training in. Next you'll be telling me you can use a Stihl Saw 'cos you've read the instructions or drive a MEWP...

And if you are involved in any type of fire service, i take my hat off to you. However there is a requirement for people to receive adequate training for using the type of work equipment you mentioned and as such, the management are correct to withdraw the harnesses until training has been provided.

That is the argument though and I agree with you that the training should be provided, what is the problem is an unsafe method is being used due to lack of training! The need still exists though and if the training is not available but the need is still required what do you do? PS. No need to take your hat off to me I'm professional in what I do and likewise with you.

My answer would be an emphatic YES. Would someone who has never used a harness before know what to attach it to? I can count many times in years gone by where people have attached their lanyard to a scaffold handrail instead of a suitable anchor point, thinking thry would be saved should they have fallen. Someone untrained might not be aware of the necessity to attach the fall arrest section of a lanyard to the harness (as opposed to attaching it to the anchor point) so to say it is only put on and taken off is not correct. Used incorrectly, it is as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Careful peoples - We're in danger of confusing training and competence.... (some responses already have). Some of the responses seem to be perpetuating the 'toe the line regardless' jobsworth attitude which has rightly been subject to huge negative attention following the death of a person who was left down a disused old mine shaft for 6 hours because the fire fighters were not 'trained' to use a specific piece of equipment for rescuing the public...(Because if they were so trained they might have been eligible for additional payments) No-one seems to have questioned whether they would have been competent - just if there was a tick in the box in the records.... I know the aqrguments for having records of training, and forbidding use if no record exists Systematisation, quality management, etc). I also (I think) understand the difference between training and competence - and the law generally only requires competence, it doesn't require training. Only lawyers in civil claims are really interested in training records... And of course the sherriff (or magistrate in England) hearing the inquest... Seems like a classic damned if you do and damned if you don't. For me? I'll try (very hard) to arrange the training - I'll try to make sure everyone has a tick in the box. But I'll try not to get too upset if someone with years of experience with similar kit but no tick in the box decides, in the heat of the moment - to use it... (But once the guys have had the training its part of their job. Any pay scheme that requires they then receive more money is fundamentally flawed, and I would be trying to change that culture as well.) (And I'll be asking why the budget for additional long-reach MEWPs had been cut yet again - why ladders?) A deceptively simple question, but perhaps a major moral dilemma underlying it. Steve

Another problem, say a job in another industry comes up this can be planned and a cost worked out. Training looked at and equipment purchased or an external contractor used. That does not apply in my line of work, won’t go into too much detail but aviation is one of my groups, anything that is purchased for us is a drain with no return.

Phil I didn't mean any other company. I raised the issue on what is happening within my organisation to get some outside opinion. So far it is echoing my concerns!

Steve, I was trying to argue that very point with other posters because there was a suggestion that training = competence. It is no doubt a risk reduction tactic but even still, a few items of basic info should be enough to allow the harness to be used safely until formal training can be provided. And, if I may point out, in addition to competence, the law does require training: Health & Safety at Work etc Act 1974, Section 2(2)(c); The Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999 Reg 13(2); The Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992 Reg 9. Having said that you appear to agree with my train of thought I had been proposing earlier on. That it's ok if I have an informed but otherwise untrained person using the harness. We're headed for the Alison Hume scenario whereby unless I've got a tick in the box for the particular item of equipment (whether I know how to use it or not) I am prevented from using it. And things will carry on for the most part, but as in Ms Hume's case it is for these very situations that this sort of equipment exists and to limit our use of it here would be shameful. A

Not necessarily Firestar, as safe work at height techniques may have been covered during 'trade' training?

Which i what i stated earlier Phil

In my previous post "they" = management

a quick question, forgive me if it has been asked and i have missed it, but what are you supposed to be attaching the harnesses too?

Phil, the water gets a bit muddy here in regards to the supply of the equipment as this comes from the customer and not my employer. However, the customer sets the standards that we are required to work to and are trained to. If an accident did occur it would be interesting to see who got the blame?

Assumptions have to be made, Alex as we don't know what type of ladder the OP intended to clip on to. Is it a footed wooden ladder? Is it a fixed steel ladder? Would it be attached to the rung? Would it be attached to the stile? You might not need to know the exact load the lanyard can take but you would need to know whatever you are clipping on to will arrest your fall...and the manufacturers instruction manual wouldn't be able to give you that info. The OP states the ladder becomes a working platform. I'm not aware of any time a ladder becomes a working platform if you have to wrap your leg through the rungs. There is also a mention of competence. Don't the Advisory Committee for Work @ Height Training (ACWAHT) define competence as a combination of training, technical knowledge and experience?