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firesafety101  
#1 Posted : 14 October 2010 16:26:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Is a RCD required to be installed in the electrical installation of retail premises?
jwk  
#2 Posted : 14 October 2010 17:02:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

If it's a new installation or one which has been or is to be modified since 2008, I think so, yes, John
firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 14 October 2010 18:05:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

John, I was on a shop fitting site Monday where the electrical contractor was installing some new cables but not a major re wire as that had been done about 6 years ago. He told me that there was not a RCD and he would not be fitting one as there was a way around the wording in the Regs. Is he right?
paul.skyrme  
#4 Posted : 14 October 2010 21:33:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Chris, There is no requirement for RCD's on sockets only used within the "equipotential zone" roughly translated inside the building... IF... Gets regs book out... This is gonna be a long post... Reg 413.3.3 Additional protection In a.c. systems… by means of an RCD… shall be provided for: (i) socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20A that are for use by ordinary persons and intended for general use, and (ii) … An exception to (i) is permitted for: (a) socket outlets for use under the supervision of skilled or instructed persons, e.g. in some commercial or industrial locations, or (b) a specific labelled or otherwise suitably identified socket-outlet provided for connection of a particular item of equipment. Please remember RCD’s are not the Holy Grail of electrical safety and are in fact very unreliable in the manner they are used by the vast majority of end users in the UK. The definitions of skilled and instructed persons follow. Skilled Person – A person with technical knowledge or sufficient experience to enable him/her to avoid dangers electricity may create. IMHO this should be any tradesman, technician, or engineer who is working on, in, with, or around electrical equipment or installations, relevant to the extent to which they are involved with the equipment or installation. Other skills may also have had sufficient training or experience also. e.g. a carpenter (a tradesman) should have been trained sufficiently to know when his electrical tools, leads etc. are unsafe to use, but should not be expected to deal with issues within distribution boards of an electrical installation without undergoing significant additional training. Instructed Person – A person adequately advised or supervised by skilled persons to enable him/her to avoid the dangers electricity may create. Now again IMHO, this should be anyone in a place of employment. As, they must be advised that “electricity is dangerous” that they can and can’t do x, y, z, that they must not do a, b, c, with electrical items or apparatus, tools, equipment or fixed wiring parts without having been otherwise trained/advised to comply with other statutory legislation. Thus, as far as I am concerned anyone in a place of work, must be suitably instructed to comply with other legislation. Thus, there is no requirement for RCD protection on socket outlets in any commercial or industrial premises where the sockets are not for the use of the general public.
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 15 October 2010 10:18:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Hi Paul, excellent reply as always. I was hoping for your input. Thanks to all others as well, all valued replies. So, in a store with staff using sockets for the purpose they are provided, and customers who don't use the sockets it is OK not to provide a RCD. Now then what if contractors are employed to carry out work inside the occupied and trading store and they wish to utilise a socket to provide power to their transformer? Would you expect them to use a RCD at the socket as a matter of requirement?
paul.skyrme  
#6 Posted : 15 October 2010 18:17:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

This would depend on the contractor and the level of competence of the "user" and the other risks present. An electrician installing an additional socket outlet in a closed store, probably not. A gang of industrial cleaners not of our shores cleaning up during a full refit with several other contractors around, probably yes!
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 15 October 2010 19:09:35(UTC)
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firesafety101

Thanks Paul.
Zimmy  
#8 Posted : 19 October 2010 19:34:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

I wonder if Paul was one of my students? For myself, I'd pop a rcd/rcbo on the circuit. By doing so I would be talking, as far as is reasonably practicable, all steps to protect the end user. The rcd/rcbo being there for supplementary protection. Kind regards to all Zimmy
paul.skyrme  
#9 Posted : 19 October 2010 20:46:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Zimmy, It depends on where & when you taught! I have used my real name so you should be able to recognise me. I would give in to an RCBO, but in this situation never an RCD protecting multiple circuits the distruption could be unacceptable. the RCBO decision would depend on the area and the application for the outlets. Paul
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