For a start the special chairs that can be used safely to descend a normal staircase. I am away from the office but can post details next week when back in the office. Chris

Hi Seamus Here is some information on evac chairs http://www.olympiclifts.co.uk/evacutrac/home.asp#

Hi Seamus. You said your place has no evac chairs. if you go for them you will have to work out how many you will need and who do you train to use them. It may be from the first floor but you will have to assess how easy it is to carry a chair down and around corners. Mike

All, Do not always assume every post is from some one in the UK. As you can see the DDA, Equality Act and FS RRO does not apply in Ireland.

Hi Chris, Absolutely agree on your last point about PEEP's and peoples mobility. Why people go striaght to evac chairs, rather than a last resort, I will never know, they are a complete pain. Training, manual handling, the extra time it takes to evacuate etc etc. Any PEEP I undertake always starts with the mobility of the person, if they can escape on their botty, then thats what we do. In my view its quicker and safer for everyone.

Thanks everyone for the replies, It would be great if they all could meet downstairs and avoid the hassel, however they dont own the bottom floor. one concern i have is if they are asked to provide evac chairs, training etc, and then the staff might refuse to operate them. It is only recently that the staff there would not answer the phone, because they claimed that it was not their job. They only answered letters. The refuge area is a possiblity, there is room, but that then leaves the fire authotity with a problem, bringing down a power chair or more, they can weigh over 90 kg (without the person), for obvious reasons the wheelchair user would need the wheelchair at ground level when they are brought down. I accept that just because the person may be a wheelchair user, it does not mean they can not come down a stairs, some might be able to, but I guess it is best to look at a worst case situation. The stairs seems to be a fine wide one, and also has a continous handrail down both sides of it, (good for visually impared clients) It is great to hear various ideas, Keep them comming thanks

kdrum - do these work in situations where the person has life-support or other systems 'plumbed-into' their chair, so that they are very reluctant to leave it?

The lift should NOT be used under any circumstances. scenario, the fire may have started in the lift motor room, access to the lift motor room might be blocked due to fire. Trained staff member for releasing passengers is on leave or unable to reach the lift etc... etc.. The list could go on and on. As stated earlier, unless it is a fire fighting lift, then forget it. Fire fighting lifts are normally only used in high rise buildings, so I doubt very much that a two floor lift (including ground floor) would be of this kind.

Seamus Tricky one. First do a Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan even if the law in Ireland does not require one, as it will help focus on the issues. Is this a specific individual or disabled users generally? If these offices are being used disabled people regularly and there is no safe means of escape, ideally you’d get out of those offices as they are not really suitable. But assuming you are stuck with this you need a plan and people who are trained to carry it out. Disabled people even those who regularly use wheelchairs are not always incapable of using the stairs and as it is only one floor, it might be possible to use this method for most of them. They will need a buddy to help them get down and you need to be confident that the escape route is well protected from the spread of fire, smoke etc as it might take some time to get them out. Evacchairs are a good thing if you are trained and confident to use them. At first sight it is hard to believe that they will work on the stairs but they do. Again you need trained staff for this available whenever there are disabled people about, and you need to practice the evacuation drills so that staff are confident. Whatever means you use make sure that you do not put the other staff at any sort of unacceptable risk. I remember one government agency over here who for their plan decided that they would try to manhandle a somebody in an electric wheel chair down several flights of stairs. This required, I think six employees and risked serious injury of their backs. Horizontal evacuation is something to consider ie moving out of the part of the building into another safer part. That’s what we do as we have separate blocks which are fire contained. Having moved into a safe block unaffected by the fire alarm we can then either stays or evacuate by lift. Failing that look at refuges, but remember that you again need a volunteer to stay behind with the disabled person. Remember if it safe for the disabled person it should be safe for the volunteer. The last thing I would look at is fire evacuation by lift. Very few lifts (in the UK at least) are rated as being suitable for fire evacuation and I would only use them if I was categorically told (by an expert ie not me) that they we safe to use.

JWK I must admit that evac chairs where always the first option to look at but the more people mention the ski-pads the more I'm persuaded the only thing that has put me off in the past is the persons dignity being dragged along. But given the building is on fire i guess that is the last concern and getting the person out quickly is more important. are there certain medical conditions within your environment that the ski pads wouldn't be suitable for? I would be interested if you have a recommended supplier for the equipment and training. I f you could PM to ensure we don't break any T&C's of the site i would appreciate it. Phil

We also use ski pads in our elderly residential care homes - ideal and easy to use - recommend them. Staff were initially sceptical about their use but after carrying out drills they quickly became confident using them. If selecting these ensure that drills are carried out regularly to build up staff confidence in using them Regards FH

In the multi story office block I used to work in we decided NOT to use evac chairs. The basis of this was we occupied four floors of a five story building with two lower level floors below groyund level to the south of the building and one floor to the north. We had three fire escape routes all equipped with refuges, two were rather samll however but the number of people likely to use them was quite low so no problem was seen with them. We had a rule that any visitors with a disability of any type, mobility, sight or deafness were required to complete a personal emergency evacuation plan. If in a wheelchair, they were required to go to a refuge until all able bodied staff had evacuated and then they were assisted down below the level of the fire and then waited for further assistance of necessary. There is no need for evac chairs provided suitable escape can be provided thus reducing the risks involved with using them, they can be quite dangerous to use and most disbaled people would be very uncomfortable when being carried or slide down the stares by people they hardly know.

Muiryden, exactumondo, why have complicated evacuation systems when the time taken to set up the evacuation system the person concerned could be long gone to the place of safety.

careful with wheelchairs if uninitiated. Some wheelchairs come apart for transport, wheel come off, sides fold in or forward, handles come off, etc. You may end up holding a wheel at the top and the user somersaulting down a few flights of stairs.

Not sure how controlled it would be in moving someone down a flight of stairs in their wheelchair i certainly think you would need more than 2 people to be able to achieve this. What happens when it isn't one flight of stairs but 3 or 4 flights of stairs and what happens if the person in the wheelchair is heavier than 100kG for instance this certainly would be outside the manual handling capabilities of 4 people carrying or assisting them down 4 flights of stairs and you can't always guarantee who is going to help they might not be 4 beefy blokes they could be 4 women from the secretarial pool. Evac chairs allow any size person operate the chair on their own (or though i think 2 people is better) to get the disabled person out of the building i don't see it that much of a problem transferring someone from the wheelchair to the evac chair especially as there should be refugee areas so time is that greater issue. As said above i don't think I'm a fan of Evac chairs and I'm more convinced by the ski-pads or similar systems but i certainly would take a evac-chair over a wheelchair. I can see trying to move someone down flights off stairs in their wheelchair ending in disaster and certainly not something i would want them practising on a regular basis as i'm sure nor would the person in the wheelchair Phil

Hi, My experience is that Evac chairs are disliked by wheelchair users in fact I’ve had some people refuse point-blank to use them during fire drills with trained staff etc. etc. In contrast the stairmate a sort of motorised caterpillar system that attaches to any wheelchair has always been well received though it is expensive. http://www.evacuation-ch.../stairmate-products.html http://www.baronmead.com/ I’ve have also seen Ski-mats used very effectively in hospitals for bed-bound patients. Regards Steve

Hi Whilst the regulatory reform order and the equality act may not exist in Ireland, there is guidance on fire risk assessment on the HSA web site, which makes mention of the order and relevant British Standards. The Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 covers fire so you should check this out. The HSA also publish a guide to inclusive health and safety practices relating to disability. Here is the link. http://www.hsa.ie/eng/em...es_with_disabilities.pdf I am based in the UK, but manage safety for a distribution centre and call centre in Dublin, and I have recently put evacuation chairs in for any mobility impaired visitors and employees. This also covers risks from injuries in an evacuation (e.g. falling and breaking your ankle). Hope this helps. Ian

As a matter of interest, has anyone carried out a fire drill with any of their disabled staff making their own way down the fire escape, via bottom bumping means? It's all well and good a person saying they can do this when being asked in a calm environment, but has anyone factored in the panic element, when all personnel would be trying to evacuate at the same time. One person using their bottom could impede others' means of escape. Would it not be better for the evacuation of disabled personnel to be done using the means that ensures the most people get evacuated in the shortest, safest time, whether able bodied or not. Dignity and remonstrations are a nice luxury during a drill, but could prove fatal during an actual fire (and not necessarily for the person remonstrating)

This is the answer although not happy about it myself as my daughter is a wheelchair user and can "bottom" downstairs. Persons with impaired mobility should gather in a predetermined place and wait for the more able persons to evacuate. Once the route has been cleared the mobility impaired will then be allowed to move on. I suppose this is right as more people will evacuate unobstructed. This is of course unless there is another route designed for mobility impaired to use? One point - you may not know all the disabled persons as some may not wish to declare their disability.

Hi my tuppence worth probably won't add much to the debate, but I have delivered evacuation training in the past base on evac chairs and a standard wheel chair As has been said, the individual concerned is the key - there are a large number of wheel chair users who have some weight bearing capabilities and maybe able to get themselves out with limited support/involvement. if they are unable to weight bear then it was the "take them down in their own chair" approach - a team of 3 were needed for this, assuming adult user and manual chair and also assuming it is not a lightweight alloy chair that could buckle. Only as a last resort was the evac chair brought into use (or if an electric wheelchair was in use). Having said all that, I think Seamus mentioned that an electric wheel chair was in use by this individual so chair evacuation may not be an option - It is not clear as to the particular reasons why the person has to be above the ground floor, other than the ground floor is not owned by Seamus's organisation - there may be scope to seek occasional use of a meeting room downstairs, whilst using wireless laptops to do any admin work associated with the visit - possibly all been thought of already. Staying on the ground floor has to be the best option - but without a better understanding of why the 1st floor has to be used it is difficult to tender more direct advice. Stuart