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TSC  
#1 Posted : 01 December 2010 08:43:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
TSC

Came across this recent case law article (see link) http://www.brownejacobso...elfall_hull_city_council Personal thought (My Opinion) is that the first two judges had a point, however court of appeal had difference of opinion, just thought it may open up a debate and of use to some people. Regards Karel
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 01 December 2010 08:55:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Thanks Karel, an interesting case and judgment. My initial thoughts are that gloves are a difficult issue for duty holders because they have to be both robust for the task and allow some dexterity. All too often employees complain that the task is too difficult with gloves. That said, many employers select unsuitable gloves for the task(s) by using a 'one size fits all' approach (sorry about the pun). I don't have any issues with the judgment as I think it is a fair interpretation of the PPE Regulations.
TSC  
#3 Posted : 01 December 2010 09:01:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
TSC

It does give thought to the process. I think that evidence of training in safe working procedures helps especially surrounding bin bags etc but as you point out too many employees are given a standard kit bag and sadly no further thought than that.
chris.packham  
#4 Posted : 01 December 2010 10:07:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Questions that this raises for me are: 1. Was the risk assessment faulty in identifying only minimal risk? 2. Was the selection of the glove for minimal risk only determined by the risk assessment or simply because the person deciding on the glove type was not aware of the different categories of glove or of the different standards that apply? 3. Was it a combination of these two? 4. Did those making the decision and those responsible for purchasing the gloves receive adequate training in this? I frequently find that inappropriate gloves are being used, particularly when dealing with protection against chemical hazards, simply because those who decide which gloves should be used do not appreciate how gloves work and how they fail, and, for example, that the tests that are done to EN standards do not indicate what protection will occur in practice. Chris
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 01 December 2010 11:00:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Right let me get this straight The council issues a bloke with protective gloves of a standard type, which are good enough for his usual job. He is then exposed to a risk which has not been foreseen (but might in law be foreseeable) in that he is told (or decides) to lift a bag which contain a sharp object which injuries him. Now let’s get back to the real world, the simple fact is that I have never come across any puncture proof gloves that are actually usable (cut resistant yes, needle proof no). If you see needles on the ground you pick them up using those long tongs not gloves. This leads to the issue of needles in bags (which of course should not be there) how are you meant to handle a bag which may or may not have needles in it without rely on gloves. The any PPE you are wearing is inadequate and so the claimant wins? Is the aim of the legislation to introduce strict liability? How are we to manage risk if whenever anybody is injured then the employer is liable? Perhaps we should bring back Lord Young after all? (I can’t believe I just said that-it must be the snow effecting my brain!)
bob youel  
#6 Posted : 01 December 2010 12:06:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Just 1 point In all my years [which covers most occupations/ situations] I have seen very few suitable and sufficient PPE risk assessments in the general working environment - so perhaps we should start there and to my knowledge the HSE do not have an example PPE risk assessment for people to use/adapt
chris.packham  
#7 Posted : 01 December 2010 12:18:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

There are gloves that will prevent needles from penetrating. They are called Stichstopp and are manufactured by KCL in Germany. I have used these to demonstrate how a needle jabbed into the glove will break rather than penetrate. " He is then exposed to a risk which has not been foreseen (but might in law be foreseeable)..." In my view anyone competent to do a risk assessment of refuse bags would have identified the risk of sharp objects, e.g. needles, and included this in the assessment. Other sharp objects would include broken glass, sharp bits of metal etc. A glove classified as for minimal risk would never, in my opinion, be adequate for protection for such a task. This suggests that either the person conducting the risk assessment did not have the experience for this, did not know about glove standards or, possibly, was not able to persuade his employer to spend the extra on the correct gloves. Chris
Ron Hunter  
#8 Posted : 01 December 2010 13:25:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

The recommendations in the referenced article (and presumably the employer's Risk Assessment) surely miss the point. There would appear to be a presumption here that this is a task to be done without the use of tools or safe(r) method & systems of work. General purpose gloves would have been acceptable in the context of minimal interface between the hand and the materials to be cleared from this derelict garden ground. It is for this reason (isn't it?) that many Local Authorities have moved away from black bag to wheelie bin systems. It is equally conceivable that (in lifting a bag of unknown contents) a highly caustic solution may have leaked out onto and through the overalls of the individual concerned. Where then the arguments of suitability of PPE in preventing lasting disfigurement or disability? What is "foreseeable" in this context is that rubbish dumped on derelict ground can contain - anything (dead animals, asbestos, glass, human excrement, needles - you name it). One would have hoped that others would have learned from the shockingly poor methods adopted by those on that recent Environmental Health TV series. I believe the professional focus should be on the whole Safe System of Work and not the gloves. That said I wholeheartedly agree with Chris and others regarding the woeful levels of compliance with PPE Regs 'assessment of need'.
RayRapp  
#9 Posted : 01 December 2010 13:26:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I agree with Chris, in that there are gloves for all sorts of activities which should provide adequate protection for the task. Many RAs specify what type of glove eg nitrile, should be worn and then don't provide them. Unlike Chris this is not my specialist area, but I am aware that there are gauntlet type gloves which are designed for those who may come into contact with sharps and specifically needles which are very robust. Chris also makes a good point that gloves for the job are often quite expensive and many employers wince at the thought of paying out for specialist gloves when any old pair will do.
GeoffB4  
#10 Posted : 02 December 2010 16:22:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
GeoffB4

Just had a look at the internet with reference to Chris's comment about Stichstopp hand protectors. Not heard of them before and they look promising - but not sure on the emphasis they place on palm protection (no mention of fingers and that's what gets stuffed down car seats). One thing it will be hard to persuade clients on is the cost - the cheapest I could see was £145 a pair.
chris.packham  
#11 Posted : 02 December 2010 19:21:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

GeoffB4 Stichstopp have protection on the palmar surfaces of the fingers and the finger tips. They were developed after studies had shown that the protective layers cope with around 98% of all needle stick injuries. Note that the gloves are in two layers. The inner layer is Kevlar with the protective overlapping steel plates on the key areas for protection. The outer glove is a simple nitrile coated cotton. This can be replaced cheaply and the inner glove can be machine washed many times, so in a sense although the initial cost is high the overall cost is, in my view, not excessive when compared with the consequences of a needle stick injury. Chris Note: I have no commercial connection at all with the manufacturer. This is just my objective view, also based on my experience with clients using these gloves.
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