The main "good reason" for having a permissive e-cig policy is that it is more likely to persuade hardened smokers in your organisation to switch, (quote for Jumponthebandwagon)

My two penneth, this is not a policy issue it is a code of conduct issue for Employers to decide upon, I believe that there should be direction given that switching may help as part of any smoking cessation programme, but the act of using e-cigs at work should not be encouraged similarly to the way that private mobile phone use is not an accepted use of an employees working time or that overly pungent foods are not allowed (under an Employer's specific active code of conduct) in an open office area; use in private or during off site recognised breaks is fine, but always away from other employees who may object.

Pete,

This 2014 thread is another resurrected by lack of moderation on the forum

However since then we have news from across the pond that the first death has been attributed to vaping (rather than exploding chargers or associated fires) https://www.phillyvoice.com/vaping-death-e-cigarettes-illinois/

Originally Posted by: George_Young

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit

This 2014 thread is another resurrected by lack of moderation on the forum

However since then we have news from across the pond that the first death has been attributed to vaping (rather than exploding chargers or associated fires) https://www.phillyvoice.com/vaping-death-e-cigarettes-illinois/

I came across that yesterday, in a statement by the CDC https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/s0823-vaping-related-death.html.

Also, read that there are roughly 200 ill-health reports linked to vaping. Looks like its not as good as people first thought.

There are 40-50 million vapers worldwide, the recent incidents are clustered around a few states in the USA and have exclusively been associated with youths vaping illicit THC containing oils ( regulated e-liquid under the Tobacco Products Directive in the UK/EU do not contain any oils )

This is a similar type of problem as when alcohol is occasionally ( and sometimes deliberately ) contaminated with methanol, it does not mean that there is a significant risk of similar when vaping e-liquids from reputable suppliers, anymore than I will be at risk of methanol poisoning when I enjoy a few pints in my local this evening.

A more sensible explanation of these incidents from leading public health experts in the UK can be found here - https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-death-in-illinois-reported-as-being-linked-to-vaping/

Locked doors and honest men..... the Directive is aimed at producers who choose to follow the law.

The RAPEX web site reveals 45 reports where EU member states have found liquids on the market contravening the directive including 4 from UK manufacturers, 13 imported from China and 4 imported from the USA.

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14

In the civil service e-cigarettes, vapes etc are treated exactly the same as tobacco based products and I think quite rightly so.  There are still by-products and the smell from some of the flavoured nicotine free units can be quite obnoxious.  Regardless of what dedicated vapers think this is not made up in the Daily Mirror it is a fact as is evidence emerging that these things are not as safe and innocuous as you might think.  They are to my mind a smoking cessation aid and should be regarded as such and not normalised within the workplace.  Sorry of this offends anyone (not) but I think they are turning into as big an issue as cigarettes and tobacco were and they need to be controlled.

It is interesting to hear that one part of the civil service has implemented a policy that vaping and smoking are to be treated exactly the same which is directly at odds with advice given by a different part of the civil service ( Public health England (PHE)  - "policies should make clear the distinction between vaping and smoking."), as I have never worked in the civil service I am curious if it is common practice to ignore advice issued by different parts of the civil service when formulating workplace policies or is this just peculiar to vaping?

I quite agree that inconsiderate vapers blowing large clouds of strongly smelling vapour can indeed be obnoxious, the reality however is that you probably work alongside very discreet vapers and have not even noticed them. 

I would be interested to hear why you think vaping will turn into as big an issue as smoking?, the latest evidence update by PHE in Feb 2019 certainly did not highlight any such concerns and the different substances involved make such an outcome very unlikely. Such concerns are only typically found in publications such as the Mail or Mirror in clickbait articles.

Chris

I don't think that you are that old.

As you are probably aware the report by the Ombudsman damning HM Factory Inspectorate (one of the predecessors of the Health & Safety Executive) for not enforcing the Asbestos Regulations in Great Britain was published way back in 1976.

http://www.hebdenbridge.co.uk/features/acremill.html

Pliny the Younger spotted that slaves in Cyprus asbestos mines tended to die young and recommended that villa owners should not take them on as domestic slaves. This was in the 1st Century AD.

We knew that smoking was bad for you well before the Hebden Bridge report. The experts may have  underestimated the risks but were far from suggesting that smoking was safe.

However, both the asbestos industry and the tobacco manufacturers were adept at downplaying the risks for many decades, and still do.

The US Geological Society publishes the annual estimates of asbestos production and use country by country. Still huge tonnages used in some parts of the World.

I think it is funny really that everyone makes a big play of these to reduce smoking when actually it has brough a completly new set of smokers to the market...teens who started on vaps now on cigs....and that some vap pods have the same nictotine content as a pack of cigs...

also who knew all we had to do to get people to smoke formaldehyde, acetaldehyde and acrolein was to just give it a strawberry falvour!...:)

It seems that the myths and misconceptions around vaping have got a firm foothold amongst EHS professionals.

Public Health England have published an article to combat some of these myths

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/20/clearing-up-some-myths-around-e-cigarettes/

Which is over twelve months old so is it current best available knowledge?

I think you will find that the UK information/ research into this subject lagging behind the US...for a change.  

More and more information is coming through about links directly the cardiac problems, but like all of it there is astill a way to go it terms of getting it right...

I'm out...as the smokers are in... :) 

Thought of a long explaination of why smoking was just a generally bad idea then read this article...maybe you should too...  :) x

'Decades-Long Surveys Suggest The “Deleterious Effects of Smoking May Extend to Detrimental Personality Changes”'

https://main-researchdigest-bps.content.pugpig.com/2019/06/21/decades-long-surveys-suggest-the-deleterious-effects-of-smoking-may-extend-to-detrimental-personality-changes/pugpig_index.html

As I said back in 2014, there is no RIGHT to smoke or vape. Ultimately it is down the employer/occupier of the building to decide what is permissible on their property. Loads of employers such as the Civil Service have gone down the route of banning vaping and e-cigarettes. Nothing has happend to make them change their minds. So how harmful vaping is or is not is relevant: if the boss wants to ban it, it stays banned.   

I would also recommend that you review the companies insurance policy

A lot of insurance companies include the use of electronic cigarettes under the definition of "smoking" within the policy which then goes on to say that no smoking is allowed within the premises and a designated smoking area be provided externally.

Sorry said I was out...but its like watching a car crash....

I have to research and provide objective advice to individual patients at work and privately...groups of people are dumb as a buck of shrimp, individuals are smart and can understand....so yes there is a lot of misinformation about vaping and ecigs around and yes it is probably due to lack of revenue etc....however if you are saying that this will cut smoking related deaths THAT really is misinformation....it only reduces the intake at that point in time and only because it is mixed with other products...the true way to stop smoking related deaths is to STOP SMOKING...follow a proper cessation of smoking program provided by your GP or free on the NHS...don't come on here saying these are brilliant and we should all hail vaping...there is absolutely no eveidence at all that ecigs help people quit smoking...that is partly due to the fear from users that participation in a proper research program who harm the image!...individual cases vary...but advising a mass of people the answer is STOP SMOKING...

I truely am out now..just off for a cig...:) (Never smoked never wanted to smoke but treated and attended lots of people who did/do...most of which I have lived longer than - even having had cancer my self (not smoking related))...

Vaping along with tattooing   will be regarded as a strange early 21st century affectation by the time our kids are grown up.

Thank you.

The telegraph article is a very good example of the fearmongering I mentioned in my last post.

For an explanation from leading UK experts - http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-of-lung-biopsies-of-patients-with-lung-injury-due-to-vaping/

To quote Linda Bauld from the University of Edinburgh - "This provides further evidence that it is extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that flavoured nicotine e-liquids of the type that have been used by millions of people around the world for up to a decade (including in the UK) are causing these injuries. Instead contaminants look like they are to blame. Most of the evidence points to adulterants in cannabis vaping but other products may be involved."

Edited by user 28 October 2019 14:45:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Civil Service policy is to treat vapes the same as cigarettes, not for safety reasons but for social reasons.  Some people find the smell from the flavoured ones really obnoxious (I know it isn't really dangerous but I too am one of those that just hate the smell) we also have a ban on recharging them via USB ports due to cases of exploding batteries. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the US following the CDC investigation into this mysterious lung disease which has prompted several states to ban them outright.

With regards to vaping (or anything else come to that) there will alaways be some risk, however low and someone will die, somewhere in the world. Unfortunately the worst case scenario will always be referred to and not the many who get positive benefits.

Isn't also about the alternative? Vaping (according to the science available at the moment) is less harmful than smoking, helps people to quit smoking and there is no evidence that it increases the uptake of smoking/vaping on young people compared to smoking alone.

From this angle, we are substituting a dangerous substance for a less dangerous one. Reducing the amount of hazardous chemicals these people are being exposed to, and those around them.

Let me state for the record that I hate vapers. It isn't even the obnoxious smells and clouds  of vape I have to walk through. It is the reminder that I am breathing in the same air as people are breathing out. Weird, but true.

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel

Ray is right with anything there is a risk but he does not mention that fact the risk and the costs associated with that risk much be balanced against the benefits.

So what are the benefits of vaping for the individual-it is apparently enjoyable, the smoker’s milieu or sociocultural context( ie the people  they work with) it can annoy people and society as a whole-it benefits the companies and people selling these products but is there a social cost?

It is not simply about whether this is “safe” or not.

The main benefits are a several orders of magnitude lower risk of an early & painful death caused by smoking, a significant cost saving compared to smoking and a generally higher quality of life.

Vaping can certainly annoy others, in particular when vapers use kit designed to produce large clouds of vapour, however most vapers can be and are very discreet, it is very unlikley that anyone on this forum works somewhere that does not have several people who discreetly vape at work, with their workmates none the wiser ( know as stealth vaping )

Is there a social cost? - Yes, lower tax revenue from tobacco sales and higher long term health care costs as less people will be dying young from smoking, society will have to pay for more very expensive health care associated with old age ( remember that tax revenues from smoking are many times higher than the cost associated with treating smoking realeted illnesses )