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Aurora  
#1 Posted : 02 January 2020 08:40:23(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Aurora

I hope this is the appropriate place to ask this but please forgive me if not. During planning work to my current house I recently became aware that I was likely exposed to asbestos in my old pre war built house in Stoke. I lived there for approx 10 years and when I first moved in a lot of work was needed on the place. The main concern i have relates to when we had the main bedroom artex ceiling removed. A workman did the actual work but my ex arranged this. The potential for asbestos was never discussed with us and he never went into the loft space before commencing work. it created a ridiculous amount of dust that hung around for a long time and was next to impossible to clean up. I appreciate that much of this was due to previously having had the roof replaced. I have recently realised that, not only could the artex have contained asbestos but also if the ceiling was brought down then whatever insulation was on top must have been too. I have no idea what this was or even that there definately was any and this led me to worry it could have been asbestos which I understand is the most dangerous kind when used in this way. I am concerned that I was therefore chronically exposed to asbestos,possibly the worst kind, over many weeks/months (possibly longer as dust got in all rooms and on furnishings etc.) And am extremely concerned about my risks of developing illness now (about 10 years on) or in the future as a result. My first query I guess is how negligent was the workman in not discussing this with us or in looking in the loft first? The second is how likely is it that the insulation was of a dangerous type as HSE suggests this is common.?
JohnW  
#2 Posted : 02 January 2020 09:09:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Hello, from my experience looking at results of analysis of artex dust, the asbestos content of the dust is very variable and low, less than 1% usually but some higher results; the manufacture of the artex seemed to involve mixing of materials but not resulting in a homogenous product. As your exposure was over a prolonged time we could be looking at something significant. How dangerous was the dust you were exposed to? We can only determine that by analysis. Can you have a look around some nooks and crannies of the house to see if you can find any dust that accumulated somewhere and was not removed? You can then get that analysed.
Aurora  
#3 Posted : 02 January 2020 09:12:37(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Aurora

Thank you for your reply. As I mentioned, this relates to my old house which I moved out of some years ago and so I have no access to it now.
thanks 1 user thanked Aurora for this useful post.
JohnW on 02/01/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 02 January 2020 09:52:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

There were/are many contractors who failed/fail to assess the presence of certain materials before undertaking intrusive works and as a consequence did/do not implement what would be considered to be suitable controls.

Many domestic clients however only look at the cost of the task often neglecting the methods, material disposal and insurance status of the contractor.

So flipping your question was it the workman being negligent in not looking or the client failing to declare materials and not following appropriate due dilligence?

Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 02 January 2020 09:52:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

There were/are many contractors who failed/fail to assess the presence of certain materials before undertaking intrusive works and as a consequence did/do not implement what would be considered to be suitable controls.

Many domestic clients however only look at the cost of the task often neglecting the methods, material disposal and insurance status of the contractor.

So flipping your question was it the workman being negligent in not looking or the client failing to declare materials and not following appropriate due dilligence?

Aurora  
#6 Posted : 02 January 2020 09:56:07(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Aurora

At the time this happened I was in my early 20s and had no idea whatsoever about asbestos or anything involved in building. I, clearly naively, thought that getting someone in who knew about this kind of thing would advise us appropriately.
Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 02 January 2020 13:22:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Despite the risks from asbestos it was likely the knowledge you are eluding to only surfaced many decades later asbestos legislation in construction banning the material from 2000 onwards.

There are sadly still trades people today oblivious to the effects of materials used in construction and how to recognise them - the HSE started a campaign as late as 2014 to try and address the situation

https://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/occupational-disease/cancer/asbestos.htm

Unfortunately if you don't know what to look for, or where to find the information, or what to ask.... many operations typically sole operators remain oblivious

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 02 January 2020 13:22:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Despite the risks from asbestos it was likely the knowledge you are eluding to only surfaced many decades later asbestos legislation in construction banning the material from 2000 onwards.

There are sadly still trades people today oblivious to the effects of materials used in construction and how to recognise them - the HSE started a campaign as late as 2014 to try and address the situation

https://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/occupational-disease/cancer/asbestos.htm

Unfortunately if you don't know what to look for, or where to find the information, or what to ask.... many operations typically sole operators remain oblivious

Aurora  
#9 Posted : 02 January 2020 13:27:35(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Aurora

Can you help on the likelihood of significant exposure or not query? I don't know how common asbestos insulation is in domestic properties. The work took place between 5 and 10 years ago.
ttxela  
#10 Posted : 02 January 2020 13:54:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: Aurora Go to Quoted Post
Can you help on the likelihood of significant exposure or not query? I don't know how common asbestos insulation is in domestic properties. The work took place between 5 and 10 years ago.

If the house was pre-war then the insulation was probably not original since lofts weren't commonly insulated prior to the 1940's (and not universally for quite a long time afterwards) and so determining the nature of insulation removed 10 years ago in a property you can no longer access will be nigh on impossible. If you can remember what it looks like you could take a guess, if it was grey/whitish it may have been asbestos, if it was orange or yellow then its less likely to be, but this is by no means anything approaching definitive.

 Older artex can contain asbestos, if the ceiling was removed in its entirety and replaced (rather than the artex texture being sanded off) then the possible release of fibres would be less. I've heard it said that the structure of artex bonds quite well with the fibres so the barb structure of the fibre is less likely to be exposed - but I've not seen any scientific report to back this up.

You don't say if you are experiencing any concerning symptoms, if you are then I'd suggest seeking medical advice, if not then I'm not sure there is much you can do. 

Edited by user 02 January 2020 13:55:10(UTC)  | Reason: punctuation

Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 02 January 2020 14:21:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

You are asking us to speculate an exposure based upon very minimal information.

Your personal asbestos exposure could be from many sources not just this single event - insulation on old school pipes, a high street demolition you passed by, old car brake pads/gaskets (i.e. road dust when you were growing up) an old cement sheet garage.

If you have health concerns these should be raised with a medical practitioner.

You could look at survey reports (structural or home buyer not much use if valuation) for the property or talk with the current occupiers - if you only worked on the main bedroom then it would be fair to assume that in the remainder of the loft space original insulation may still be present for a proper identification.

Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 02 January 2020 14:21:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

You are asking us to speculate an exposure based upon very minimal information.

Your personal asbestos exposure could be from many sources not just this single event - insulation on old school pipes, a high street demolition you passed by, old car brake pads/gaskets (i.e. road dust when you were growing up) an old cement sheet garage.

If you have health concerns these should be raised with a medical practitioner.

You could look at survey reports (structural or home buyer not much use if valuation) for the property or talk with the current occupiers - if you only worked on the main bedroom then it would be fair to assume that in the remainder of the loft space original insulation may still be present for a proper identification.

HSSnail  
#13 Posted : 02 January 2020 14:41:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

As others have said asking about your likely exposure with the information given is impossible. However it’s worth noting that aertex is not an insulating material in the context of ACM (asbestos containing material) it’s a bonded asbestos – in other words the asbestos is contained by another material, and the amount of asbestos present is far less than an insulating material. Even today it is not a material that requires a licenced contractor to remove. I don’t believe asbestos insulation was that common in single occupancy private homes, as building regulations did not require the same fire resistance as commercial property, flats etc. Unfortunately asbestos was such a common material particularly in the 60’s and 70’s those of us around at that time have probably been exposed at some time or other. Fortunately most of us will not develop asbestos related disease. There is a certain level of exposure required we just don’t know what it is! Unfortunately people will often say 1 fibre is enough to cause asbestos related diseases – and while it might it’s not certain that exposure to 1 fibre will! Best advice I can give you is just get on with life, no point worrying about such an unknown situation.

thanks 1 user thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
ttxela on 02/01/2020(UTC)
toe  
#14 Posted : 03 January 2020 11:58:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Aurora, I think that most people have answered your post to the best of their ability with the information you have given. Notwithstanding previous posts, and to provide you with some information of your question “I am concerned that I was therefore chronically exposed to asbestos, possibly the worst kind”

I have recently had the opportunity to work directly with Professor Roger Willey, in my opinion he is the UK’s leading expert in all things Asbestos related. His and Prof Seaton’s research (et al) ‘real risk of Asbestos versus perceived risk’ has concluded that you would need to be exposed to more than 100 000 000 asbestos fibres for them to be life threatening. Given that there is <1% of asbestos (in asbestos aertex) and you would need 102 million asbestos fibres to be life threatening, although it is difficult to conclude the perceived health affects of you being exposed to the asbestos dust, as it were, I am hoping that the results from this research is informative for you. You can search for ‘Helsinki Criteria’ for more information on this, as this is what is used in legal asbestos related cases.

toe  
#15 Posted : 03 January 2020 12:12:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

There is a certain level of exposure required we just don’t know what it is! Unfortunately people will often say 1 fibre is enough to cause asbestos related diseases – and while it might it’s not certain that exposure to 1 fibre will!

If it is helpful there are legal exposure values called the ‘Helsinki Criteria’ that are used in legal cases, see extract below.

‘Occupational exposure would need to be taken into account, as the symptoms of lung cancer are insufficient to determine whether asbestos is a cause. Around one year of “heavy” exposure (e.g. manufacture of asbestos products, asbestos spraying, insulation work, demolition of old buildings) or 5–10 years of moderate exposure (e.g. construction, shipbuilding) may increase lung cancer risk “2-fold or more”. A cumulative exposure of 25 fibre years was identified as doubling the risk of developing lung cancer.

For lung cancer — or indeed asbestosis — to develop, exposure to asbestos fibers greater than 25 fiber years per ml (f.yrs/ml) would be needed. Or, as Professor Willey identifies, to exceed this level, exposure would need to be 1.3 weeks at 1000 fibers per ml breathed in (f/ml), or 2.5 years at an exposure level of 10 f/ml.’

To add: Exposure to one asbestos fibre will not kill you, this is a myth.

https://www.expertwitnessjournal.co.uk/special-reports/642-asbestos-real-risk-and-perceived-risk

thanks 2 users thanked toe for this useful post.
HSSnail on 03/01/2020(UTC), CptBeaky on 03/01/2020(UTC)
HSSnail  
#16 Posted : 03 January 2020 13:13:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

thanks Toe

Had not seen Professor Willey's work very interesting.

achrn  
#17 Posted : 03 January 2020 14:01:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Many domestic clients however only look at the cost of the task often neglecting the methods, material disposal and insurance status of the contractor.

So flipping your question was it the workman being negligent in not looking or the client failing to declare materials and not following appropriate due dilligence?

I think that's rather an unfair comment.  I would not expect a random non-building-trades householder to have any idea that artex might contain asbestos.  I know I was surprised when I first heard that.  I doubt that many such housholders know they might have asbestos in their lino, or their damp-proof-course either.

If someone has no inkling that getting artex taken down triggers asbestos exposure, and no-one mentions it to them, how can they be expected to exercise "appropriate due diligence"?

However, back to the OP - yes, you might have inhaled some asbestos dust.  It might kill you.  However, I'm not sure there's much you can do about it now.

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
Aurora on 03/01/2020(UTC)
peter gotch  
#18 Posted : 03 January 2020 15:38:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Aurora

If you are unlucky enough to be diagnosed with asbestos-related disease at some point in the future, there's not a lot of point in speculating where you were exposed - over a short period of time in Stoke or repeatedly in scenarios which are nigh on impossible to identify - Asbestos Containing Materials are very common and if you live in an urban environment, the probability is that there is very low level asbestos in the air that you breathe on the street.

As indicated by others the "one fibre can kill" theory has been generally accepted as a myth, research published by Roger Wyllie and many others.

Please do not think that I treat the risks of asbestos with little respect. One of my cousins died from asbestos-related disease last month. But the probable source of his exposure to significant levels of asbestos fibres is quite easy to establish, though I am NOT going to elaborate on this on a public forum.

toe  
#19 Posted : 04 January 2020 11:51:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

thanks Toe

Had not seen Professor Willey's work very interesting.

If anyone gets the opportunity to attend one of his conferences or presentations I would highly recommend it. He is an excellent speaker.

Aurora  
#20 Posted : 04 January 2020 13:14:52(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Aurora

Thank you all for the info. Does anyone know how common loose asbestos insulation is in domestic attics in England?
Roundtuit  
#21 Posted : 04 January 2020 18:09:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

back to that piece of string again
Roundtuit  
#22 Posted : 04 January 2020 18:09:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

back to that piece of string again
johnmurray  
#23 Posted : 05 January 2020 09:36:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

The HSE have an information page that may be of interest: https://www.hse.gov.uk/a...essentials/loosefill.htm

You seem to be worrying too much though. If you were exposed to a high quantity of fibres, you can do nothing about it anyway. Your risk of expiring from heart disease is much higher!!

Most of the dust you inhale is excreted from the lungs via the natural processes that do that.

https://rais.ornl.gov/tox/profiles/asbestos.html

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