Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Mosh  
#1 Posted : 06 January 2020 11:40:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mosh

An HMO has three floors + an inhabited basement (so four floors in total). The basement is accessed via the narrow hallway and then down a flight of steps, which begins at the end of the hallway, next to the kitchen. (See picture below - basement stairs are on the left.)

There is currently no fire door/compartmentation between the basement and upper stories (other than the basement ceiling).

From what I understand, an HMO of this size would need to have the basement sealed off completely. The problem is, how/where would you put a fire door at the entrance of this basement? The hallway is narrow and presumabely the door would have to be fitted at the top of the stairs, in the hallway. However, this would be hazardous. If the door opens forwards - into the stairwell, then besides for being against the direction of travel in an evacuation, it would also generally be dangerous for people who are in the hallway who want to go down the stairs, and the door opens directly into the stairs - which could cause someone to fall down the stairs.

On the other hand, if the door opens outwards - into the hallway, then it could hit the kitchen door (pictured), as it's being opened, and would also block the hallway, potentially blocking other people who are trying to escape down the hallway?

Any advice?

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 06 January 2020 12:11:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Talk to the local authority as they are responsible for legitimate HMO.

You could also look on their planning portal as from the picture this appears to be a new or very recent fit-out so likely there are plans for what will have been approved (and not necessarily installed).

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 06 January 2020 12:11:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Talk to the local authority as they are responsible for legitimate HMO.

You could also look on their planning portal as from the picture this appears to be a new or very recent fit-out so likely there are plans for what will have been approved (and not necessarily installed).

score  
#4 Posted : 06 January 2020 12:57:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
score

MOSH, if you close the Fire Door the area is then compartmentalised, it looks like a fire door wedged open??

Mosh  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2020 13:27:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mosh

There is currently no door at all to the basement. The door that's wedged open is the kitchen door.

score  
#6 Posted : 06 January 2020 13:49:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
score

whats behind the camera?

Mosh  
#7 Posted : 06 January 2020 14:11:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mosh

Behind the camera is the front door to the property, a couple of rooms, and an ascending staircase. The basement is on the picture, to the left. Kitchen straight ahead.

SBH  
#8 Posted : 06 January 2020 14:23:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

Are there any ignition sources in the basement, or sources of fuel if not then theres no real risk of fire, if yes you will need a fire door possibly at the bottom of the steps

SBH

Mosh  
#9 Posted : 06 January 2020 14:28:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mosh

Thanks SBH. 

The basement has just a couple of bedrooms and a bathrooms, so it would be low risk in terms of ignition sources.

Does that mean it doesn't need compartmentation? 

Is a fire door just on basement level legally acceptable?

SBH  
#10 Posted : 06 January 2020 15:09:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

Is there another exit in the basement .

Building regulations require 30 minutes fire resistance for the structure, increasing to 60 minutes where the number of storeys is four or more. Concrete and masonry are the most common basement construction solution. In addition to fire resistance, means of escape is also a key design consideration for basements

SBH

HSSnail  
#11 Posted : 06 January 2020 16:41:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

From what you are saying about the property sounds like it will need an HMO licence from you Local Authority. There are some very specific fire safety requirements linked to that licence over and above other types of authority. I would speak to your local authority for advice - just like roundtuit said.

Edited by user 06 January 2020 16:42:08(UTC)  | Reason: spelling - which even i can see!

deane5678  
#12 Posted : 06 January 2020 17:26:44(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
deane5678

As always it's hard to say for sure without visiting the property, but the current situation (as you've described it) doesn't sound particularly safe for occupants escaping from the upper floors should there be a fire in the basement.

Not having appropriate fire resistant separation between the basement and the ground floor also doesn't follow the recommendations in the current fire safety guidance for HMOs (See: LACORS P14). Obviously this isn't a problem if, as a risk assessor, you're happy that all the occupants could all get out safely in the event of a fire (one of the first questions you should always ask yourself if you're ever unsure of something fire related) and would be prepared to defend that position in court?

Personally, I agree with the comments about putting a FD30s door and surrounding construction at the top or bottom of the stairs to the basement, or if that's not reasonably practicable, then perhaps a door could be installed somewhere around where you've taken the photo from, with the open area to the left filled in appropriately (assuming, that would provide separation between the basement and the habitable ground floor rooms / staircase etc.)?

thanks 1 user thanked deane5678 for this useful post.
Mosh on 06/01/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 06 January 2020 20:05:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The more I look at the picture the more convinced I am becoming the the kitchen door is the fire segregation and that it is being kept open contrary to design. Unfortunately it is unclear where the automatic closure is.
Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 06 January 2020 20:05:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The more I look at the picture the more convinced I am becoming the the kitchen door is the fire segregation and that it is being kept open contrary to design. Unfortunately it is unclear where the automatic closure is.
Messey  
#15 Posted : 06 January 2020 20:16:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

As SBH has said, its usual practice to have 60 mins fire protection between a basement and upper floors. This can be achieved by fire doors at the top - or in this case at the bottom of the staircase. In some cases a 30 min at each end.

But is it a true/blind basement? Its rare (if ever) the case that a basement flat has no windows. Some basement flats or rooms open up into a light well in the front or garden or yard at the rear. So why is this relevant?

The rationale for a 60 min separation btween basement and upper floors is based on the assumption that a basement fire cannot vent through windows

Fires in ground and upper floors may heighten air pressure in fire rooms and develop to reach temperatures that break windows letting fire and hot gases including smoke to leave the building, thereby reducung the heat & air pressure.

Fires developing in blind/true basements (no windows) dont have the opptunity to vent, so can only spread internally through floors and up the staircase (plus risers and left shafts etc). Therefore to protect escape routes,  enhanced (60 min)fire separation is required.

But if the basement flat/rooms here in this example have windows, its more like a lower ground floor. Indeed, estate agents refer to these rooms as garden flats. In these cases, one could argue in a fire, there is opportunity for the fire to vent so a reduction in separation to 30 mins may be adequate.

For Gods sake dont guess this as it must be assessed competently 

thanks 3 users thanked Messey for this useful post.
Mosh on 06/01/2020(UTC), Kate on 07/01/2020(UTC), toe on 09/01/2020(UTC)
Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.