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I work for a large insurance company who deal with commercial and household claims during floods, fire etc. We have a network of suppliers who usually carry out the repairs for us and we take the role of client under the CDM regs. However, the customer sometimes wants to have the work carried out by their own builder therefore a cash settlement is agreed. There may be some instances where the customer identifies further undiscovered damage as the work starts/progressess and may come back to us for further costs on this but noting else. My question is, when the settlement has been agreed do we relenquish our duty as a client under CDM and advise the customer the responsibilites of CDM as a whole transfer too them (possibly their builder under the domestic client duty)? My second question is, when work is tendered for and cashed of to the winning bidder (usually large fire/flood claims) does the same rule apply? This has been our approach since CDM 2015 came in. However, recently our management companies (external third parties who manage some of our larger claims), believe we are not complying and have duties remain under CDM. I do not see this when i look at the regs having done it this way for many years but i am now questioning our approach. Any advice appreciated.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Phil, 25 people have read your post so far and none have responded...so I'll give it my best shot.
In the first scenario, where the customer has work carried out by their own builder, I believe the client duty transfers to the domestic customer and on to the contractor. Advising the domestic customer of this is good practice.
Having some difficulty understanding the second question. If you are tendering for the work to be carried out on behalf of the domestic customer then I think you may still be considered the Client as it is 'furtherance of a business' as per CDM 2.1 Interpretation.
Happy to be corrected as always.
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 1 user thanked RayRapp for this useful post.
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: RayRapp  Phil, 25 people have read your post so far and none have responded...so I'll give it my best shot.
In the first scenario, where the customer has work carried out by their own builder, I believe the client duty transfers to the domestic customer and on to the contractor. Advising the domestic customer of this is good practice.
Having some difficulty understanding the second question. If you are tendering for the work to be carried out on behalf of the domestic customer then I think you may still be considered the Client as it is 'furtherance of a business' as per CDM 2.1 Interpretation.
Happy to be corrected as always.
Thanks Ray for getting back to me on this topic. Apologies for the misunderstanding with the second question however, i feel your response for this has put thought in to how we deal with this and perhaps have to change how we approach it. Basically, we have external management companies who go to settle large loss claims and get external contractors to bid for the work. My understanding was once the tender was won then the CDM part is removed from us and transfered to the contractor/s. However, as you rightly point out, if our management company are still involved in the management of the claim on behalf of us then we still have obligations under CDM. I will look at transfering this to the management company on our behalf.
although we do not lose the responsibility of being a client.
. Thanks again for your support, much appreciated.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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If you hand over cash to the householder, and they choose to spend it on repairing their house, I would say the householder is the client and you do not have any duties. Principally this is because you are not in control of
the contractors (even indirectly) or the site, so cannot fulfil the duties even if you wanted to.
However, if you appoint contractors or project managers that appoint contractors, then I think you are managing or controlling construction work and remain as the client. The homeowner won't be the client because they aren't paying for it and they aren't selecting contractors etc. The management company aren't the client because you are paying them to get the work done.
I do not think you will be able to transfer the client duties. The regs do allow for a relinquishing of (most) client duties, but only to a party that is already a client - that is, if there are two clients, one can take on
all the client duties and the other can be absolved of nearly all of them. To my reading, the regs do not permit a client to transfer client duties to a body that is not a client, even if that party is willing to take them on.
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Originally Posted by: achrn If you hand over cash to the householder, and they choose to spend it on repairing their house, I would say the householder is the client and you do not have any duties. Principally this is because you are not in control of
the contractors (even indirectly) or the site, so cannot fulfil the duties even if you wanted to.
However, if you appoint contractors or project managers that appoint contractors, then I think you are managing or controlling construction work and remain as the client. The homeowner won't be the client because they aren't paying for it and they aren't selecting contractors etc. The management company aren't the client because you are paying them to get the work done.
I do not think you will be able to transfer the client duties. The regs do allow for a relinquishing of (most) client duties, but only to a party that is already a client - that is, if there are two clients, one can take on
all the client duties and the other can be absolved of nearly all of them. To my reading, the regs do not permit a client to transfer client duties to a body that is not a client, even if that party is willing to take them on.
Thanks for your advice. Pretty clear the first scenario is what we are doing and right. However the second scenario we are possibly not.It seems we may have to stay as the client as per your comments above. Looks like a re-think is goiong to have to be looked at. Thank you both for your input, much appreciated.
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Rank: Super forum user
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To add to achrn's comments CDM 1994 included for the role of a Client's Agent. CDM 2015 doesn't. However, it is not uncommon for more than one person (person in the legal sense) to meet the CDM definition of "client". Not necessarily the person who pays the bills, nor even the person who appoints e.g. a contractor. Each case needs to be considered on its merits. If in doubt, forget CDM and think about the person's responsibilities under HSWA, possibly with an eye to their civil law duties towards their "neighbour". Donoghue v Stevenson.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I think we need to understand a few terminologies within the CDM regulations to completely comprehend the question. “client” means any person for whom a project is carried out; “domestic client” means a client for whom a project is being carried out which is not in the course or furtherance of a business of that client; “project” means a project which includes or is intended to include construction work and includes all planning, design, management or other work involved in a project until the end of the construction phase; “construction work” means the carrying out of any building, civil engineering or engineering construction work and includes… To add, the CDM duty of the ‘Client’ is a duty relating to managing projects. So, if it’s a project that includes construction work there will be a ‘Client’ responsibility either domestic or non-domestic. Just to finish: - A customer burns his carpet with an Iron and the insurance company gives them the money for a new carpet. I fail to see how CDM could apply (to anyone) when they instruct a carpet fitted to fit the carpet.
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Originally Posted by: toe
Thanks toe for a bit of clarity on the terminology. This is in line with my own understanding but having dealt with numerous people whose understanding on CDM is so far away it makes me question myself at times. Think this clears it up for me and thanks for posting. I think we need to understand a few terminologies within the CDM regulations to completely comprehend the question.
“client” means any person for whom a project is carried out; “domestic client” means a client for whom a project is being carried out which is not in the course or furtherance of a business of that client; “project” means a project which includes or is intended to include construction work and includes all planning, design, management or other work involved in a project until the end of the construction phase; “construction work” means the carrying out of any building, civil engineering or engineering construction work and includes… To add, the CDM duty of the ‘Client’ is a duty relating to managing projects. So, if it’s a project that includes construction work there will be a ‘Client’ responsibility either domestic or non-domestic. Just to finish: - A customer burns his carpet with an Iron and the insurance company gives them the money for a new carpet. I fail to see how CDM could apply (to anyone) when they instruct a carpet fitted to fit the carpet.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Phill Toe only gave you a small part of the CDM definition of "construction work" which largely derives from the definitions of "building operation" and "work of engineering construction" in long since repealed Section 176 of the Factories Act 1961. There was a significant volume of case law as to what constituted a "building operation" that should still be authoritative when the Courts decide what is and is not "construction work". The example of a replacement carpet was perhaps not the best comparitor. I don't think it would be "construction work". However, if the iron burnt through the carpet and required repair or replacement of the floor boards beneath, then that would probably be subject to CDM and, if so, any ancillary activities including the removal of the old carpet and, possibly, fitting a new carpet would probably fall within the remit of CDM.
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Thanks Peter. I kind of read between the lines on Toes comment looking at potential work surrounding this activity and the possible construction angle as you rightly state. Appreciate your input and thanks. Originally Posted by: peter gotch Phill Toe only gave you a small part of the CDM definition of "construction work" which largely derives from the definitions of "building operation" and "work of engineering construction" in long since repealed Section 176 of the Factories Act 1961. There was a significant volume of case law as to what constituted a "building operation" that should still be authoritative when the Courts decide what is and is not "construction work". The example of a replacement carpet was perhaps not the best comparitor. I don't think it would be "construction work". However, if the iron burnt through the carpet and required repair or replacement of the floor boards beneath, then that would probably be subject to CDM and, if so, any ancillary activities including the removal of the old carpet and, possibly, fitting a new carpet would probably fall within the remit of CDM.
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Rank: Forum user 
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Originally Posted by: jmaclaughlin
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Originally Posted by: jmaclaughlin
Be careful in interpreting this chart. In particular, what it calls a client is not what the insurer discussed in this thread might call a client. If the insurer regards the person making the claim as 'a client', looks at question 1 and says 'yes', then appoints a contractor to do the work so answers question 2 'yes' they will conclude that it's a domestic client when it is not. If the insurer appoints a contractor to work on the insurer's client's property, that does not make the insurer a domestic client.
A domestic client is NOT any client for work to domestic property, a domestic client is ONLY where client for the construction work appointment is not furthering a business (i.e. is appointing a builder to work on the client's own home). The insurer is furthering their insurance business. If they appoint someone to do construction work, they will not be a domestic client.
If the insurer hands cash to the homeowner to settle the claim, and the homeowner doesn't appoint a contractor but instead does it all themselves, then I agree CDM will not apply. I don't think that was one of the contemplated options.
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Originally Posted by: achrn Originally Posted by: jmaclaughlin
Be careful in interpreting this chart. In particular, what it calls a client is not what the insurer discussed in this thread might call a client. If the insurer regards the person making the claim as 'a client', looks at question 1 and says 'yes', then appoints a contractor to do the work so answers question 2 'yes' they will conclude that it's a domestic client when it is not. If the insurer appoints a contractor to work on the insurer's client's property, that does not make the insurer a domestic client.
A domestic client is NOT any client for work to domestic property, a domestic client is ONLY where client for the construction work appointment is not furthering a business (i.e. is appointing a builder to work on the client's own home). The insurer is furthering their insurance business. If they appoint someone to do construction work, they will not be a domestic client.
If the insurer hands cash to the homeowner to settle the claim, and the homeowner doesn't appoint a contractor but instead does it all themselves, then I agree CDM will not apply. I don't think that was one of the contemplated options.
Thanks again and for pointing this out. I noticed this but became aware of the difference betweeen Domestic and commercial client. Thanks
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