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bpollard26  
#1 Posted : 05 February 2020 11:52:58(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
bpollard26

On Induction, the company I work for issue a PPE kit bag with the following items 

Hard Hat, bump cap, gloves, safety glasses, face masks x 2, 1st aid kit, hi vis vest, ear plugs

Now I understand that they have to supply the PPE and replace anything if it is damaged or has been used and needs replenishing. 

If an employee leaves after a short period of time, say within 2-4 weeks would it be acceptable/reasonable to charge the employee for unused or un returned items? 

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 05 February 2020 12:06:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Read the regulations and realise the answer is no you cannot - even if they leave on day one they have still be an employee and cannot be charged for PPE.

Why are you issuing so much kit in the first place (individual first aid kits) and how do they simultaneoulsy wear a Hard Hat and Bump Cap?

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 05 February 2020 12:06:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Read the regulations and realise the answer is no you cannot - even if they leave on day one they have still be an employee and cannot be charged for PPE.

Why are you issuing so much kit in the first place (individual first aid kits) and how do they simultaneoulsy wear a Hard Hat and Bump Cap?

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC)
bpollard26  
#4 Posted : 05 February 2020 12:14:06(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
bpollard26

Once they have left they are no longer an employee, if they take the PPE with them can they therefore be charged or have we given it to them?

CptBeaky  
#5 Posted : 05 February 2020 12:15:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Read the regulations and realise the answer is no you cannot - even if they leave on day one they have still be an employee and cannot be charged for PPE.

Why are you issuing so much kit in the first place (individual first aid kits) and how do they simultaneoulsy wear a Hard Hat and Bump Cap?


"An employer cannot ask for money from an employee for PPE, whether it is returnable or not. This includes agency workers, if they are legally regarded as your employees. If employment has been terminated and the employee keeps the PPE without the employer’s permission, then, as long as it has been made clear in the contract of employment, the employer may be able to deduct the cost of the replacement from any wages owed."

from the HSE site Leaflet INDG174. If they don't return PPE and it was made clear in the induction/contract you CAN charge them for it.

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC)
bpollard26  
#6 Posted : 05 February 2020 12:21:02(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
bpollard26

This is most useful, this is certainly a good discussion point and so far two good replies. Thank you for your responses

CptBeaky  
#7 Posted : 05 February 2020 12:27:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

If it helps, during our three month probation period we operate a policy of seeking a refund on safety boots if they are not returned. After the probabtion period we don't do this. It is made clear during the induction and in the contract they sign.

We don't seek compensation for the cheaper items, such as masks, gloves and ear defenders.

Normally I ask the new employees if they have their own boots for the probation period and purchase new boots for them after the three months. Obviously if they don't already own any boots, they can either opt for a spare pair from stock, or I will purchase them a pair, with the afore mentioned clause.

I don't think we ever have actually claimed back against someone though, and I am not sure we would unless the person left under very bad terms.

thanks 2 users thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), webstar on 05/02/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#8 Posted : 05 February 2020 12:29:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Only if it has been made clear that the PPE etc has been issued on the understanding that it remains company property and they want it back otherwise people might assume that it is a “gift”.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 05/02/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 05 February 2020 13:12:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Given the speed most HR functions work an employee may have left without seeing, or signing, such a contractual obligation.

Two to four weeks would not typically be considered an acceptance period under employment law e.g. if you wanted to change a policy.

You would need to be careful that a single deduction from final pay does not breach other legislation such as National Minimum Wage (written after the HSE guidance) and that the terms of such deduction would be considered "fair" under employment law.

Along with hygiene considerations for any returned kit to be reused probably why very few employers bother.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), webstar on 05/02/2020(UTC), bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), webstar on 05/02/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 05 February 2020 13:12:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Given the speed most HR functions work an employee may have left without seeing, or signing, such a contractual obligation.

Two to four weeks would not typically be considered an acceptance period under employment law e.g. if you wanted to change a policy.

You would need to be careful that a single deduction from final pay does not breach other legislation such as National Minimum Wage (written after the HSE guidance) and that the terms of such deduction would be considered "fair" under employment law.

Along with hygiene considerations for any returned kit to be reused probably why very few employers bother.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), webstar on 05/02/2020(UTC), bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), webstar on 05/02/2020(UTC)
bpollard26  
#11 Posted : 05 February 2020 13:18:58(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
bpollard26

I agree with the hygiene issue, it would only be for un used PPE

With regards to HR, it would be in the contract that they sign before starting or on their induction day, surely we arent responsible for them not reaidng fully?

bpollard26  
#12 Posted : 05 February 2020 13:23:30(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
bpollard26

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

If it helps, during our three month probation period we operate a policy of seeking a refund on safety boots if they are not returned. After the probabtion period we don't do this. It is made clear during the induction and in the contract they sign.

We don't seek compensation for the cheaper items, such as masks, gloves and ear defenders.

Normally I ask the new employees if they have their own boots for the probation period and purchase new boots for them after the three months. Obviously if they don't already own any boots, they can either opt for a spare pair from stock, or I will purchase them a pair, with the afore mentioned clause.

I don't think we ever have actually claimed back against someone though, and I am not sure we would unless the person left under very bad terms.


Yes I agree with regards to the safety boots, if they leave within a period then they should pay back for the boots and also agree to a certain extent on the cheaper items too, however have a high turn over of employees and it can become very costly when having to keep replace PPE. 

Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 05 February 2020 13:57:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

If your HR are organised and have the contract ready no problem. Too often I have people telling me after 12 - 24 months they still have not been issued an actual contract despite having returned an offer letter before they started (different documents).

Does Kit-Bag = mobile worker  or is it instead of a locker? Either way termination must involve some form of communication so if they are at a single site ask for the PPE there and then, if they are mobile give them x weeks to return it to... or their wage will be docked

Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 05 February 2020 13:57:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

If your HR are organised and have the contract ready no problem. Too often I have people telling me after 12 - 24 months they still have not been issued an actual contract despite having returned an offer letter before they started (different documents).

Does Kit-Bag = mobile worker  or is it instead of a locker? Either way termination must involve some form of communication so if they are at a single site ask for the PPE there and then, if they are mobile give them x weeks to return it to... or their wage will be docked

bpollard26  
#15 Posted : 05 February 2020 14:06:27(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
bpollard26

In this case HR are organised which helps.

These are for mobile workers, i do agree with the giving a certain amount of time to return the PPE if they leave. In the case of them being terminated would that have different terms or would it be subject to the contract and what they sign?

Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 05 February 2020 15:06:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Termination of employemnt is a clause within a contract - your HR department should have or be capable of writing this covering as a sub-paragraph company issued equipment, under what circumstances it must be returned, how it should be returned (in person, by post to..., handed to area supervisor), when it should be returned and the consequence of not doing so.

If this activity will actually be cost effective (remembering all the additional administration entailed - used/unused/cleaning/replacement/payroll processing etc.) what is going wrong so many leave?

And again beware the impact against National Minimum Wage of any deduction.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#17 Posted : 05 February 2020 15:06:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Termination of employemnt is a clause within a contract - your HR department should have or be capable of writing this covering as a sub-paragraph company issued equipment, under what circumstances it must be returned, how it should be returned (in person, by post to..., handed to area supervisor), when it should be returned and the consequence of not doing so.

If this activity will actually be cost effective (remembering all the additional administration entailed - used/unused/cleaning/replacement/payroll processing etc.) what is going wrong so many leave?

And again beware the impact against National Minimum Wage of any deduction.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC), bpollard26 on 05/02/2020(UTC)
chris42  
#18 Posted : 06 February 2020 09:50:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

It seems odd that you have such a turnaround of people that the odd pair of boots is a problem. You seem to suggest that the company terminates employment after a short period of time. If this is the form of your business model then perhaps you should factor in these costs to this model. I find it hard to believe people take on work for a couple of weeks just to get free safety boots!

However, a question; once you get the boots back what do you intend doing with them? Re issue to the next employee? If so how do you clean them and isn’t the cost of this almost as great as the cost of the boots? Fail to see the real benefit, and time and effort would be better spent improving recruitment. That way you are tackling the root cause not the symptom.

Chris

thanks 1 user thanked chris42 for this useful post.
bpollard26 on 06/02/2020(UTC)
bpollard26  
#19 Posted : 06 February 2020 10:07:06(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
bpollard26

I'm not suggesting that they would start a job for a few weeks to gain a pair of boots, we also don't seek to terminate employment after only a few weeks. In some instances that may be the solution depending on the employee. 

We dont clean boots and dont have any plans to do so and the focus of the discussion isn't solely aimed at the boots, it was more a general discussion, if an employee does start and decides to leave within a short period of time, can we charge for PPE that hasnt been returned?

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