Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Nivedita  
#1 Posted : 11 March 2020 12:47:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Nivedita

Hi everyone,

I am working for a Client who is planning to appoint a Principal Contractor who have 17 RIDDOR reportable incident in 2019 and 13 RIDDOR reportable incidents in 2018 for 10,356,375 hours worked.  They also have an  high AFR (Accident Frequency Rate).

I compared the Statistics against 10 other construction companies in the UK whose Stats were compartively lower than the Principal Contractor the Client plans to appoint. I have suggested the client to check the details of these incidents with the principal Contractor and how they are managing them. We plan to have a meeting with the Principal Contractor next week.

Does anyone have any suggestions, questions that I should be asking the Principal Contractor during the meeting before they start work on site? e.g. checking their competencies etc.

Hsquared14  
#2 Posted : 11 March 2020 13:11:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

Ask them about:

  • The nature of each incident
  • What they learned from them
  • Actions they have taken in response

I once queried a client during an audit as to why they had chosen to give a contract to a roofing contractor who had fatality in the last year.  The answer was that they had clearly learned a lot of lessons from the incident, they had made a lot of changes to the way they managed H&S on site, changed how they did risk assessment, why they did them and what information they gave to the employees, they were more willing to talk about the hard questions and gave better answers than other contractors who were in fact cheaper and on paper better from a statistical point of view.   The statistics don't give you the whole picture!

thanks 2 users thanked Hsquared14 for this useful post.
Nivedita on 11/03/2020(UTC), John D C on 11/03/2020(UTC)
Nivedita  
#3 Posted : 11 March 2020 13:46:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Nivedita

They also have two Prohibition notices, 1 improvement notice and 1 prosecution notice in the last 10 years. What should I be looking at or questions regarding these?

Elfin Davy 09  
#4 Posted : 11 March 2020 15:48:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

Another PC ?

Nivedita  
#5 Posted : 11 March 2020 16:09:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Nivedita

No, its the same PC.

RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 11 March 2020 16:17:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Well, there is more than one way of looking at this. First, a company working in a relatively high risk industry like construction 13 RIDDOR reportable incidents may not be so high, especially given over 10 million working hours achieved.

Another way to look at this is their systems and processes should be better assuming of course they have taken corrective measures post incidents. Obviously their reprting systems are good - Lol.

Seriously, I once worked for a company who had 6 fatalities in a year! Ok, that was worldwide, but it did not necessarily mean they were a bad company. Indeed, they are still one of the largest construction/rail companies in the UK.      

JohnV  
#7 Posted : 11 March 2020 17:35:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JohnV

I would suggest that they give you a copy of a couple of their accident investigation reports. (The names and any other information that could identify the injured parties will have to be redacted to comply with confidentiality requirements). By studying the reports and how they have gone about identifying root causes and actions to prevent recurrence, you should get a good indication of their safety management approach and ethos. Any investigation which automatically shifts the blame on the injured party and ends with the recommendation "must take more care" without digging deeper to find out underlying causes such as failures in management / supervision, inadequate systems of work, cost cutting measures, etc., would raise alarms with me and indicate that the investigation is a box ticking exercise with no real desire to learn from the accident. 

thanks 1 user thanked JohnV for this useful post.
Nivedita on 12/03/2020(UTC)
Sweep  
#8 Posted : 12 March 2020 07:50:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Sweep

Unless my mathematics is incorrect, this organisation’s AFR is 0.17 for 2019, based on 10 million hours.  Without opening up a debate on the benefits of AFR etc. and in the context of a tender,  the figure is generally below a level that would normally raise an eye brow in the construction industry.  (Assuming these are all injuries and not a mixture of dangerous occurrences) 

Furthermore ‘10,000 000 hours worked’ for one organisation in one year is quite significant and I suspect the context of this may somewhat be lost.  I would assume this is nation/sector wide on multiple programmes for multiple Clients with multiple stakeholders etc. 

I suppose the point is that if I were looking at this organisation in the procurement phase, I would wish to understand the companies organisational context.  They clearly have a reporting culture.  Regarding their systems to manage adverse events, what else events could you ascertain (as others have said – lessons learned, system reviews after incidents etc.)  For me this is about context. 

The statistic alone wouldn’t mean a ‘no’ for me. 

Nivedita  
#9 Posted : 12 March 2020 11:21:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Nivedita

Yes you are right the AFR is 0.16 for 2019 for 10 million man hours worked, but this is only for RIDDOR reportable incident which does not include dangerous occurence. However I will take a note of your comment and discuss it during the meeting. 

Also many thanks to  JohnV and Hsquare14, for your guidance as it really helps me to prepare myself before the meeting.

peter gotch  
#10 Posted : 12 March 2020 13:25:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Nivedita, trying to read anything into accident statistics is a complete minefield.

You need to explore all sorts of variables that make benchmarking one Contractor against others close to impossible.

One as already alluded to is how much underreporting (and/or underrecording) some Contractors may have.

Another is whether a Contractor does or does not include stats for its supply chain. If they do, then that may well include data for higher risk processes, such as roofing and scaffolding.

In contrast a Management Contractor who employs very few tradespersons should have very, very low stats if they do NOT include data for their supply chain.

....and there are many other variables. What is important is to consider how effective the Contractor's processess are, inclusive of those for investigating incidents and sharing lessons (as appropriate - sometimes there might be nothing to learn!)

Mr Insurance  
#11 Posted : 12 March 2020 13:47:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr Insurance

Using very rudimentary maths, 10m annual hours would relate to 6,000 employees x 35 hours weekly x 48 weeks per year. 

17 incidents from 6,000 employees is approximately one incident for every 350 employees.

On these (admittedly) basic figues, you need to ask whether or not the frequency is actually reasonable?

Obviously, the nature of incidents and reaction to them is of more importance.

thanks 1 user thanked Mr Insurance for this useful post.
Nivedita on 12/03/2020(UTC)
toe  
#12 Posted : 12 March 2020 22:29:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

Nivedita, trying to read anything into accident statistics is a complete minefield.

You need to explore all sorts of variables that make benchmarking one Contractor against others close to impossible.

One as already alluded to is how much underreporting (and/or underrecording) some Contractors may have.

Another is whether a Contractor does or does not include stats for its supply chain. If they do, then that may well include data for higher risk processes, such as roofing and scaffolding.

In contrast a Management Contractor who employs very few tradespersons should have very, very low stats if they do NOT include data for their supply chain.

....and there are many other variables. What is important is to consider how effective the Contractor's processess are, inclusive of those for investigating incidents and sharing lessons (as appropriate - sometimes there might be nothing to learn!)

Peter is spot on. It may be that the PC is including RIDDOR's for all work on their sites. For example, they may include RIDDOR's that are reported by a sub-contractor in their stats. We include subbies for our organisational stats, rightly or wrongly.

firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 19 March 2020 16:09:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

In my opinion one accident is one too many, two is two too many and three - well I would expect a vast improvement in their  procedures before that happened.

You should ask for full details of their improved health and safety procedures and who is appointed to reduce accidents by following good practices.

What is the work and why are you looking at that particular PC?

Users browsing this topic
Guest (3)
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.