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Tesla  
#1 Posted : 06 August 2020 08:32:17(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tesla

a elderly woman was injured by a membeber of our staff with a rolling tiered trolly, she was transported home by a member of our staff and then taken to hospital by her sister. it is believed that she has a fractured wrist and a sever gash to her foot. does this require reporting or has the chain been broken by the fact of delivering her home first

CptBeaky  
#2 Posted : 06 August 2020 08:51:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

By the wording of the regulations it seems not, since she was not taken directly to hospital from the scene. That being said, I would report it in a heartbeat. She should have been taken to hospital (And I wonder why she wasn't). She probably has a claim, and therefore you want to ensure you have good paperwork to show the court.

I think the "spirit" of the rules would back me up. If not we run the risk of injured customers/visitors constantly being moved breifly somewhere else, before they go to hospital.

thanks 2 users thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 06/08/2020(UTC), RVThompson on 06/08/2020(UTC)
Tesla  
#3 Posted : 06 August 2020 09:18:42(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tesla

Thank you CptBeaky I would agree but my directors beg to differ, taking the letter of the law attitude

A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 06 August 2020 10:01:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

“Thank you CptBeaky I would agree but my directors beg to differ, taking the letter of the law attitude”

Why?

They do understand that a RIDDOR (as I keep saying) is not an admission of liability or anything. It is simply the report of an accident. It has no bearing on whether there will be an investigation or not (that’s based on the availability and holiday plans of inspectors!). Similarly it has nothing to do with a civil claim (although the lawyers for the claimant will often imply it does)

RIDDOR reports are not a big deal

thanks 3 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 06/08/2020(UTC), flysafe on 06/08/2020(UTC), RVThompson on 06/08/2020(UTC)
Kate  
#5 Posted : 06 August 2020 10:09:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I agree with the directors. I don't see why you would not follow the letter of the law.  If we all start interpreting RIDDOR according to what we believe the spirit of it to be, instead of according to what it says, there will be even more RIDDOR chaos and confusion than there is already.

This is not reportable.  If you tried to report it what category would you put it under in the selection you are given in the online reporting form?  Certainly not member of the public taken directly to hospital as that is not what happened.

Yes the injured person may well make a claim, and yes you should investigate the accident and keep proper records.  But a RIDDOR report is not one of those records.

Tesla  
#6 Posted : 06 August 2020 10:22:46(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tesla

Wow !! thanks you both CtBeaky, Kate and A Kurdziel. spark a bit of contraversy.

However I shall leave it to the directors to take whichever path they feel is appropriate.

once again thank you all

Tesla  
#7 Posted : 06 August 2020 10:28:09(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tesla

Sorry just one more thing to throw in the ring.

Why is it that if an employee suffers a fracture it is reportable under specific injuries, yet there are no such provisions in the Non Worker category. 

CptBeaky  
#8 Posted : 06 August 2020 10:34:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Not contraversy in the sense that we all agree that it isn't reportable. Just whether it should have been.

I would hazard a guess to your follow up question would be that if a member of public broke their arm, they would tend to be covered by the "taken to hospital for treatment" clause, unless of course you dump them outside your gates first, then send them to hospital...

A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 06 August 2020 10:38:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The whole RIDDOR thing evolved out of the old Factories Act- and it was assumed that employees would routinely sustain injuries as part of their normal work (how times have changed) and you only needed to report serious specific injuries to the factories Inspectorate. 

Kate  
#10 Posted : 06 August 2020 11:22:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I would expect that one of the questions that the investigation would answer would be "Why didn't she go straight to hospital?"

If the answer was "so we wouldn't have to make a RIDDOR report" then there is a serious problem with people's priorities.  

But of course the answer may be something like "she insisted she wanted to go home".

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 06/08/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#11 Posted : 06 August 2020 11:30:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Fair point, and I apologise for being facetious. Looking at my posts, it seems I am a bit cross this week. Hopefully it'll pass soon.

Kate  
#12 Posted : 06 August 2020 11:50:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I don't think you have anything to apologise for.  There was nothing wrong in what you wrote (even if I disagree with it).  But if you are feeling cross perhaps you just need a break!

A Kurdziel  
#13 Posted : 06 August 2020 12:30:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I think that we are all cross right now!

I just makes me want to rant!
And what do THEY know about PPE, Risk assessments and viruses
A degree on classics isn't much use now is it!
Rant over!
thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
nic168 on 04/09/2020(UTC)
Gerry Knowles  
#14 Posted : 06 August 2020 14:46:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gerry Knowles

On a personal note, as I am edging along towards being elderly, I can fully understand why an elderly person would not wish to go to hospital, there is a toughness about them whivch has a tendency to underestimate the serious on the injury and an inbuilt pride which normally comes out as "I don't want to bother them".  So despite best efforts you probably couldn't have got her to hospital anyway.  

On the issue would I have reported the incident under RIDDOR probably not, on the grounds that there are many people who interperate the law and standards and we should not do that.  Would I have conducted a full investigation and made sure that all the necessary documentation was in place without doubt. 

Having spent a long time working in the insurance industry and looking after claims for clients. This is a classic for the saying "I feel a claim coming on".  I would bet that the injured person won't be the driver for the claim it will be the children. So get the paperwork in place and sit back have a few drinks and wait for the claim to come fluttering through your door.  

Whilst we are on the subject I for one don't feel grumpy this week at all. 

peter gotch  
#15 Posted : 06 August 2020 15:11:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

I'm going to throw in a curve ball!

There has been mention of the words "directly taken to hospital" but the relevant part of RIDDOR says:

5.  Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers—

(a) an injury, and that person is taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury.......

Perhaps the victim was "taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment", just not "directly". 

Taken home where one of the victims's relatives said words along the lines of "Get the victim to hospital, NOW".

So, "taken from the site of the accident to a hospital, via another place,  for treatment"

I think that the guidance on the HSE website uses the word "directly" but the Regulations do NOT.

They say that "The law is an ass", often this applies to RIDDOR.

When they were negotiating what was to be counted in Eurostat accident statistics, it is said that some in the UK were very resistant to dropping the "year and and a day" from the stats for fatalities, whilst apparently in one region of Italy, if the person was removed from site (e.g. in an ambulance) before they died it didn't count as a fatal accident.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 06/08/2020(UTC), Kate on 07/08/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 06 August 2020 21:49:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As they are not "an employee" then it is also unlikley any time limit exists for the trip to hospital unlike the seven day counter starting the day after the incident for over seven day reporting.

Roundtuit  
#17 Posted : 06 August 2020 21:49:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As they are not "an employee" then it is also unlikley any time limit exists for the trip to hospital unlike the seven day counter starting the day after the incident for over seven day reporting.

Tesla  
#18 Posted : 10 August 2020 17:36:48(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tesla

Once again thank you to you all for the information provided. 

Fortunately I did a full report the moment it happened, as you have said it will not be the injured person driving a claim, however the IP and her sister have stated they do not follow that rule of thumb, (I know, do not trust anyone) but if the IP had to have several trips to hospital they would like the taxi fares reimbursed. So if they do claim and that is the limit of the claim our insurance company would not have a lot to complain about. 

It may of helped that we showed a lot of compassion and care from the outset.

thanks 1 user thanked Tesla for this useful post.
Kate on 11/08/2020(UTC)
HSSnail  
#19 Posted : 11 August 2020 08:27:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post

I don't think you have anything to apologise for.  There was nothing wrong in what you wrote (even if I disagree with it).  But if you are feeling cross perhaps you just need a break!

Unless it was a finger or Toe - would the break be RIDDOR reportable? - Sorry feeling light headed all this working at home is not good for me!

thanks 1 user thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
Kate on 12/08/2020(UTC)
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