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knotty  
#1 Posted : 19 August 2020 09:43:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
knotty

There has been a lot of discussion around COSHH assessment, but I still have a query.

In my recent experience, COSHH Assessments (whether they do well at considering the actual tasks or not) seem to be substance-focussed.... so each substance has its own assessment.

Back in the old days as a post-doc chemist, I would assess the planned experiment, and incorporate all chemicals to be used, expected (or potential) intermediates and products into a single "COSHH" assessment.

I'm boldly planning to refresh the COSHH process at my current workplace, to reflect my "old" task-based approach. So, for example, if I was assessing the task of cleaning a restroom, I would consider the substances and methods used to clean the toilets, then for the urinals, then for the sinks, then for the floors, and consider the biological hazards of the environment. I could then summarise the key hazards and control measures required for the task, to inform and instruct staff.

However, I have not found any other (recent) examples of this approach. Am I missing something obvious?

Kate  
#2 Posted : 19 August 2020 10:53:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The obvious thing that you are missing is that most of the world has no clue about how to do COSHH assessments properly, and so the substance-based approach that you mention is very common.  It's still wrong though and your approach is right.  Go for it!

thanks 8 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
knotty on 19/08/2020(UTC), aud on 19/08/2020(UTC), flysafe on 19/08/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 20/08/2020(UTC), johnmc on 20/08/2020(UTC), chris42 on 20/08/2020(UTC), Hsquared14 on 21/08/2020(UTC), stevedm on 22/08/2020(UTC)
OliverWallace  
#3 Posted : 19 August 2020 11:06:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
OliverWallace

Hi Knotty, task based COSHH risk assessments are the correct method as they take in accound the environment and exposure scenarion. I'll message you an exposure scenario form I use as the basis for all our COSHH risk assessments. 

thanks 3 users thanked OliverWallace for this useful post.
knotty on 19/08/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 20/08/2020(UTC), johnmc on 20/08/2020(UTC)
George_Young  
#4 Posted : 19 August 2020 11:35:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
George_Young

My COSHH assessments are also tasked based as we sometimes require mixing substances, or use a substance in different ways such as one substance can be used to fill a machine, but can also be applied to the material using a brush, which are two different tasks and each brings their own risks.

What's even worse, I have seen companies provide MSDS's as a COSHH assessment.

thanks 3 users thanked George_Young for this useful post.
knotty on 19/08/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 20/08/2020(UTC), stevedm on 21/08/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 20 August 2020 08:45:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

task based 

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
stevedm on 21/08/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#6 Posted : 20 August 2020 10:38:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

As the same chemical used differently in two separate and different tasks can present very different hazards (as used)czxy only task based risk assessments stand any chance of being reliable indications of what is then needed to protect those who might be exposed.

thanks 1 user thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
stevedm on 21/08/2020(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#7 Posted : 21 August 2020 12:04:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

As everyone is saying TASK based is the way to go.  You need to be able to consider chemicals interacting which you can only do if you are looking at a task and have a full list of everything used in that task.  You also need to be able to determine how the location of the task influences exposure.   Example 1 - paint making with 20plus ingredients if you did 20 assessments you might miss the fact that when you add one ingredient to the others you create a vapour or a dust that you need to take into account in your exposure scenario.   Example 2 - vehicle manufacture use of touch up spray paint - exposure scenarios are different if used inside a vehicle than outside - if you did a substance assessment you would miss the fact that exposure is likely to be higher if the product is used inside the vehicle.

thanks 1 user thanked Hsquared14 for this useful post.
knotty on 21/08/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#8 Posted : 21 August 2020 13:15:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Consider the case of that wonderful material called dihydrogen monoxide. Formed by combining two highly hazardous (flammable) gases but not then formally identified as hazardous. Long identified by dermatologists as an irritant to the skin but you will not usually find it on any safety data sheet. Actually, the cause of more occupational contact dermatitis than any other chemical. In certain conditions can cause severe skin burns or even be life threatening. In every workplace I have ever visited but often the risk of damage to skin is ignored.

thanks 4 users thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
knotty on 21/08/2020(UTC), chris42 on 21/08/2020(UTC), RVThompson on 21/08/2020(UTC), stevedm on 21/08/2020(UTC)
chris42  
#9 Posted : 21 August 2020 13:28:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Dihydrogen that’s a couple of Welsh hydrogen atoms isn’t it.

With a lonely oxygen

Very good Chris P

RVThompson  
#10 Posted : 21 August 2020 13:51:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RVThompson

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html#USES

Some background reading on dihydrogen monoxide...

stevedm  
#11 Posted : 22 August 2020 09:16:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Originally Posted by: chris.packham Go to Quoted Post

Consider the case of that wonderful material called dihydrogen monoxide. Formed by combining two highly hazardous (flammable) gases but not then formally identified as hazardous. Long identified by dermatologists as an irritant to the skin but you will not usually find it on any safety data sheet. Actually, the cause of more occupational contact dermatitis than any other chemical. In certain conditions can cause severe skin burns or even be life threatening. In every workplace I have ever visited but often the risk of damage to skin is ignored.

Chris I am not sure everyone got the message :)

But our forum conspiracy theorist are off an running... :)

liamarchie  
#12 Posted : 26 August 2020 09:34:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
liamarchie

I'm in a similar position to knotty in that im at the point where im overhauling RA's for areas along with relevant COSHH assessments, so have the opportunity to start with a fresh process

There arent many (if any) situations were we use multiple substances simultaneously or combined in our processes, so i was thinking of adopting this approach:

  1. Risk Assess the tasks
  2. Identify substances within the tasks, and produce relevant COSHH assessment for the the exposure scenario (for example, disinfectant used in dilution, applied via mopping, exposure 1/2 an hour a day)
  3. Within the RA, have reference to the scenario COSHH assessement. Actual cossh controls arent listed in the task RA.
  4. SSW generated which goes into more detail on how to dilute, mop and safely conduct task incorporating the controls determined both in the RA and COSHH assessment.

Is there any flaws in this approach, or improvements that could be made?

knotty  
#13 Posted : 01 September 2020 11:04:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
knotty

Originally Posted by: liamarchie Go to Quoted Post

I'm in a similar position to knotty in that im at the point where im overhauling RA's for areas along with relevant COSHH assessments, so have the opportunity to start with a fresh process

There arent many (if any) situations were we use multiple substances simultaneously or combined in our processes, so i was thinking of adopting this approach:

  1. Risk Assess the tasks
  2. Identify substances within the tasks, and produce relevant COSHH assessment for the the exposure scenario (for example, disinfectant used in dilution, applied via mopping, exposure 1/2 an hour a day)
  3. Within the RA, have reference to the scenario COSHH assessement. Actual cossh controls arent listed in the task RA.
  4. SSW generated which goes into more detail on how to dilute, mop and safely conduct task incorporating the controls determined both in the RA and COSHH assessment.

Is there any flaws in this approach, or improvements that could be made?

 Yes - this is a good approach. Just remember to consider substances that arise that are not deliberately introduced (biological hazards in restrooms, fumes from nearby processes etc). Ensure you refer to MSDS's where appropriate, and keep all documents on file. And ensure your staff are aware of the relevant risks and control measures (SSW is a great place to summarise these).
chris.packham  
#14 Posted : 01 September 2020 20:49:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

"Ensure you refere to MSDS! - Yes but what about those chemicals that do not appear on the MSDS but are potentially hazardous, particularly when skin exposure is possible? For example the most authoritative list of skn sensitisers lists over 4900 chemicals, most of which will never have been classified as H317 and will therefor not appear on safety data sheers as such. Howeve, many of them will be found in workplaces. For example, when did you see dihydrogen monoxide (water) on a safety data sheet. Yet wet work is the most common cause of occupational contact dermatitis. It's the real hazard that arises when a task is carried out that must be the basis on which the risk assessment is carried out. Anything less runs a significant risk of an invalid risk assessment.

toe  
#15 Posted : 01 September 2020 22:36:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

I 100% agree on a task-based approach for most COSHH RA. However, there are circumstances where you may not use this methodology and use the substance approach. For example, in a car workshop, General Purpose or High Melting Point grease can be used from lubricating a door check strap, lubrication pins/bolts, to packing a wheel bearing, i.e. it will be used for hundreds of applications during the maintenance of vehicles. In this scenario I would assess the chemical being used rather than hundreds of tasks it could be used for.

Same again, working with Brake Fluid. This can be used changing a master cylinder, replacing brake pipes, changing a brake calliper or bleeding brakes, the substance approach assessment utilising all the tasks together may be the way forward working with this substance.

BernieGale123  
#16 Posted : 02 September 2020 07:50:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BernieGale123

A lot has changed since the COSHH regulatiosn first got published and the whole approach needs to be reviewed. Why would you make an assessment of a chemical and leave our part of its reactive nature? Flammable hazards for example?

These days environmental issues are becoming critical, so again it should be part of the assessment process. Are the chemicals being used going to cause environmental impact? Containers may be recyclable, but how hazardous would be the process? Anyone who has experience of chemical disposal will tell horror stories of reactions occurring weeks after. I did clean up after a chemical fire, and we had to set a safety watch on the drums for about a month.

Task-based has to be the approach, but its how you integrate all the elements of the task.

Any chemist who has done process risk assessments will refer to how reactions change depending on the volumes of material and effects of pressure and temperature. A lab-scale process may be conducted safely but even scaled to 25 litres the reaction can be completely different.

For years I used to quote the example of tipex in training......the datasheet described the PPE required which is obviously appropriate for packaging on a production line but to ask an office staff member to wear, boots, gloves, and respiratory protection. 

Obviously, assessments change depending on how a material is used. 

toe  
#17 Posted : 04 September 2020 00:03:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

On this note regarding chemists. Some time ago, I was tasked to train highly qualified chemist in COSHH risk assessments and chemical safety. Thinking this was a wind up I duly initially refused.

To get to the chase, I eventually trained 9 chemists how to conduct COSHH RA and the safety measures working with chemicals. High end technical people can sometime struggle with some basic safety concepts, and the training ended up being a great success with the deligates going away with an understanding why it’s important to manage safety albeit relating to chemicals, something they were alien to in the past.

Edited by user 04 September 2020 00:04:59(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 1 user thanked toe for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 07/09/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#18 Posted : 06 September 2020 08:15:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

From my experience assuming that because several people carry out the same task the risk for each of them will be the same and thus a generic risk assessment is a valid approach is somewhat doubtful.

Consider three people, each painting the same articles repeatedly. Now observe each. Quite often experience suggests that one will get almost no paint on them, one some and with the third it appears that the paint on the articles is subsidiary to the paint on them. Which level of exposure do you then base your risk assessment on?

We find the same situation when training workers to remove gloves without contaminating their hands with what is on the outside of the gloves. Even after having been shown how to do this correctly, some will be successful but commonly often over 50% fail the test revealing hands contaminated with the chemical. This is not unusual as this study illustrates…

“Forty-three hairdressers and apprentices were asked to remove gloves after washing hair. UV tracer was used to identify hand contamination before and after a training session on glove removal. All the participants (100%) had their hands contaminated during the first round.

In the second round 55.8% were contaminated. There were no significant differences between hairdressers and apprentices.” - Glove use among hairdressers: difficulties in the correct use of gloves among hairdressers and the effect of education, Oreskov KW, Søsted H, Johansen JD, Contact Dermatitis, 2015

With on-going training this can be reduced, but the reality is that you will never achieve identical results across a number of workers. So how does one allow for this in a risk assessment?

Isn’t this why our main effort should be in controlling the process rather than attempting to control the person?

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