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Roundtuit  
#1 Posted : 25 January 2021 13:36:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Spray tunnels should not be used - pretty plain and clear advice from the HSE

So why are stories like this appearing?

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2021/01/25/site-demand-soars-for-covid-killing-spray-tunnels/​​​​​​​

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 25 January 2021 13:36:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Spray tunnels should not be used - pretty plain and clear advice from the HSE

So why are stories like this appearing?

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2021/01/25/site-demand-soars-for-covid-killing-spray-tunnels/​​​​​​​

Holliday42333  
#3 Posted : 25 January 2021 15:13:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

Because people want to be seen to be doing 'something' and sales pitches (web-based or otherwise) that give the impression of what you can do are more appealing than HSE advice saying what you can't.

When people want a solution and have a company value that is a variant on 'can do', statements like this (from the linked article) can be very pursuasive and give the false impression that all is above board.

"Gateway spokesman Grant Taylor said: “A growing number of contractors are looking at personal protective tunnels to help keep their site workers safe.

“The cost of closing down sites due to infection can be huge so minimising the risks like this is a sound investment.”

Edited by user 25 January 2021 15:22:16(UTC)  | Reason: Additional text

A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 25 January 2021 15:31:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Because for a lot of people health and safety is not logical system for managing occupational risk but a form of ritual magic.

During the 19th century anthropologists came across people living in a simple lifestyle barely advance beyond the stone age in the Melanesian  islands . The islanders met up with western sailors and they were  impressed by the manufactured items the sailors brought with them. The islanders referred to these as “cargo” . They had no idea of where the “cargo” came from and did not appreciate the economic, social, and technical aspects of manufacturing these goods. Instead, they saw certain activities being carried out by the visitors and assumed that they were some sort of ritual magic which created the “cargo”.  They began to copy the visitor’s rituals in an attempt to produce more “cargo”.  During the Second World War the islands were occupied by the American military who indulged in ever more dramatic rituals. The islanders went so far as to build runways and attempted to make airplanes out of sticks and string to try to elicit “cargo”.  In the west this was regarded with great amusement until people pointed out that we also have rituals and actions which make no sense, but we hope will induced some “cargo” like benefit. This is why you see people working along side of the rod wearing head protection, when there is no risk of something falling on their heads or conversely wear masks on top of their heads as if they a re trying to assuage the twin gods “elf and safety” . Creating pieces of random paper and calling them risk assessments and hoping that these charms will  keep away evil spirits is another manifestation of the western cargo cult.

There is a  need to be seen to do something even though they have been told by their priests( the HSE) not do something does not always work, such as the disinfecting arches.

Basically, people   do not understand how the world works which is why they try to solve complex problems with simple but wrong solutions and elect people who pander to this desire for simplicity eg trump and his “magic wall”.

Snake oil is alive and selling well  in 21st century Britain.

thanks 4 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
stevedm on 26/01/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 26/01/2021(UTC), Yossarian on 26/01/2021(UTC), nic168 on 08/02/2021(UTC)
chris.packham  
#5 Posted : 25 January 2021 15:35:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

The Internet is full of claims that are totally unsubstantiated but that to the initiated appear to make sense. The issue is very well put by Prof. Brian Cox - "Common sense is completely worthless and irrelevant when contemplating reality."– from Human Universe. In another book he wrote - "‘The really difficult thing is to learn not to trust what we might like to think of as common sense’ – from Why does E=MC2? When challenged it often turns out that those making the claims genuinely believe that they are correct. Sometimes, when reality is pointed out to them they can become concerned, other times quite aggressive.

With regard to the spray/fogging units, the WHO considered these and stated that they are of no real benefit and could be harmful. 

It often takes some effort to investigate these type of claims, involving time spent searching to obtain the real, science based and peer-reviewed studies that provide the reality. It is one of the things that I spend quite a large part of my own time on.

If you want more on this feel free to PM me.

thanks 4 users thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
stevedm on 26/01/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 26/01/2021(UTC), Yossarian on 26/01/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 27/01/2021(UTC)
achrn  
#6 Posted : 25 January 2021 16:32:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

At least one of our clients' sites had these - arranged on the walking route into site with no option to go around (and site was operating a one-way system on this route so once you had gone through the main gate you were somewhat committed).

We've told all our staff that HSE, WHO and SAGE all strongly advise against them. We've confirmed to our staff that we will support a decision not to go through even if it means being turned away from the site.

When we become aware of them, we refer management at the location to the HSE page https://www.hse.gov.uk/c...coronavirus-outbreak.htm

thanks 2 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
paul.skyrme on 25/01/2021(UTC), Ade1983 on 29/01/2021(UTC)
achrn  
#7 Posted : 26 January 2021 15:28:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post

We've told all our staff that HSE, WHO and SAGE all strongly advise against them. We've confirmed to our staff that we will support a decision not to go through even if it means being turned away from the site.

(Talking to myself...) We've now strengthened our advice to staff and strongly recommended that staff do not go through these systems.  We've said that they should advise their contact on the site that they are not going to pass through such a spray because it contradicts HSE guidance, but not to get into an argument about it - just leave.

I've also raised it (indirectly - I don't hobnob in such circles myself) with CLC and CECA.

thanks 3 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
peter gotch on 26/01/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 27/01/2021(UTC), Ade1983 on 29/01/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 04 February 2021 14:59:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Today's inbox from the HSE included a link to revised guidance for duty holders again emphatically saying DO NOT spray people in tunnels.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/disinfecting-premises-during-coronavirus-outbreak.htm​​​​​​​

Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 04 February 2021 14:59:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Today's inbox from the HSE included a link to revised guidance for duty holders again emphatically saying DO NOT spray people in tunnels.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/disinfecting-premises-during-coronavirus-outbreak.htm​​​​​​​

paul reynolds  
#10 Posted : 04 February 2021 16:50:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
paul reynolds

Seems that someone has made some money from these "magic tunnels" so will be intresting to see if the lovely Principal Contractors will be so keen to remove and discard .....sure the commercial dept wont be too happy....

John Murray  
#11 Posted : 04 February 2021 19:07:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Seems almost universal then, nobody who is anybody likes this. I expect it will be installed at all schools, hospitals and factories soon then....

"Spraying people with disinfectants is not recommended under any circumstances (including in a tunnel, cabinet, or chamber). The World Health Organisation has also confirmed that it could be harmful and does not reduce the spread of the virus. This is because transmission is usually through droplets or contact, so the effectiveness of these systems is likely to be minimal.  Even where a person who is infected with COVID-19 has passed through a disinfection system/device, as soon as they start speaking, coughing or sneezing they can still spread the virus. Disinfectants used in this way are potentially harmful and can cause health effects including respiratory and eye irritation"

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/disinfecting-premises-during-coronavirus-outbreak.htm

"Risk with Disinfection Tunnel

When the disinfectant is applied through fogging/misting process, the particle size of the disinfectant becomes very small (Micron Level) and could pose serious respiratory problems. The chances of it entering the respiratory tract of humans are very high. For eg. Hypo being an oxidant, it could damage the human mucous layer easily"

https://www.pure-chemical.com/blog/covid-19-disinfection-tunnels/

"Dr Paul Soo the Programme Management and Technical Officer (NPO-C), the World Health Organization Representative Office for Malaysia, Brunei Darussalam and Singapore in his letter to the Ministry of Health on the 8 April 2020 has state that the spraying of individuals or groups with chemical disinfectants or detergents does not limit the spread of COVID-19. The act is also physically and psychologically harmful to the individual"

https://spm.um.edu.my/2020/04/12/disinfecting-tunnel-or-booth-is-not-effective-in-stopping-covid-19-transmission/

Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 04 February 2021 20:04:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Wonder if the following applies - Offences against The Person Act 1861?

Section 23: Unlawfully and maliciously administering, or causing to be administered to or taken any poison or other destructive or noxious thing so as to endanger life, thereby inflicting grievous bodily harm.

Section 24: Unlawfully and maliciously administering or causing to be administered to or taken any poison or other destructive or noxious thing with intent to injure, aggrieve or annoy the person taking the substance.

So as well as wasting company money on something "not fit for purpose" "contrary to "The General Product Safety Regulations" there now needs to be discussion between advisor, procurement and senior management who will be taking the 5 - 10 years prison sentence.

Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 04 February 2021 20:04:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Wonder if the following applies - Offences against The Person Act 1861?

Section 23: Unlawfully and maliciously administering, or causing to be administered to or taken any poison or other destructive or noxious thing so as to endanger life, thereby inflicting grievous bodily harm.

Section 24: Unlawfully and maliciously administering or causing to be administered to or taken any poison or other destructive or noxious thing with intent to injure, aggrieve or annoy the person taking the substance.

So as well as wasting company money on something "not fit for purpose" "contrary to "The General Product Safety Regulations" there now needs to be discussion between advisor, procurement and senior management who will be taking the 5 - 10 years prison sentence.

John Murray  
#14 Posted : 04 February 2021 21:58:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Without taking into account the almost certain problems of effectively forcing a person with Asthma/COPD into an atmosphere that may well cause them to be at risk of death.

Still, causing 100,000 + to cease to be alive just to give herd immunity (for a small period of time) to the larger amount, has become accepted as "normal" now...

achrn  
#15 Posted : 05 February 2021 11:48:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Wonder if the following applies - Offences against The Person Act 1861?

Section 23: Unlawfully and maliciously administering, or causing to be administered to or taken any poison or other destructive or noxious thing so as to endanger life, thereby inflicting grievous bodily harm.

You'll need to prove malice.

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