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Eddkeeper  
#1 Posted : 27 January 2021 10:38:16(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Eddkeeper

I need a bit of advice here. 

A work colleague has removed all external safety signage.  What are the options as far as an employer is concerned.  It is clearly a breach of their terms of employment, not to damage or interfere with company property. Are there any issues from a HASWA or regulations aspect that need to be brought to the table?  

Your thoughts please.

HSSnail  
#2 Posted : 27 January 2021 10:56:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

HASAW Act reg 8 breach possibly

8 Duty not to interfere with or misuse things provided pursuant to certain provisions.

No person shall intentionally or recklessly interfere with or misuse anything provided in the interests of health, safety or welfare in pursuance of any of the relevant statutory provisions.

Acorns  
#3 Posted : 27 January 2021 11:48:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Acorns

Keep it simple.  Seems fairly simple tat if the employee is damaging / remiving company signage etc then that would be the internal issue for the company to deal with - including reviewing and replacing signs are needed.  That may be sufficient to deal with the employee whether its words of advice or something more serious.   Introducing legislation as the 'stick' to the employee could be a way of saying what they have done wrong, however, IMHO, the employer can't really enforce the legislation by way of taking them to court etc.   Yes they could enforce internally, but if they can enforce internally then why use legislation rather than contract?

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aud on 05/02/2021(UTC)
RVThompson  
#4 Posted : 27 January 2021 12:47:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RVThompson

Hi Eddkeeper,

Why did your colleague remove them in the first place, and why just the external ones?

Was it just a matter of vandalism or mischief?

A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 27 January 2021 12:49:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I’d be curious to why they did this? Yes, keep this internal using disciplinary procedures with the option of  torture on stand-by.  The HSE won’t prosecute and you can’t take out a private prosecution so Section 8 is not really relevant.

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aud on 05/02/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 27 January 2021 13:59:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I often admit to removing superfluos signs at new employments but have never been in a position where every extenal (or internal) sign would come down.

Silliest of questions but have you spoken to this colleague to determin why?

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 27 January 2021 13:59:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I often admit to removing superfluos signs at new employments but have never been in a position where every extenal (or internal) sign would come down.

Silliest of questions but have you spoken to this colleague to determin why?

Kate  
#8 Posted : 27 January 2021 16:51:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The answer to what to do about it does depend very much on why they did it!

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Wailes900134 on 27/01/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 28/01/2021(UTC)
toe  
#9 Posted : 03 February 2021 00:04:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

I’d be curious to why they did this? Yes, keep this internal using disciplinary procedures with the option of  torture on stand-by.  The HSE won’t prosecute and you can’t take out a private prosecution so Section 8 is not really relevant.

If a person is to be disciplined, there must be a valid reason for the disciplinary action and the action justified. Just breaking company rules may not be sufficient. However, suppose a person has broken the law by ‘intentionally or recklessly interfering with safety equipment’. In that case, this may be a just and valid reason for disciplinary action, so, I believe section 8 of the H&SAWA could well be relevant in this case.

As others have said, why was the signage removed needs to be established.

ttxela  
#10 Posted : 03 February 2021 09:16:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

This could have been predicted, before it happened all the signs were there.....

sorry.....

But yes, I agree the first step should be to determine why they did it.

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Kate on 03/02/2021(UTC), andrewcl on 01/12/2021(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 03 February 2021 09:27:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

“If a person is to be disciplined, there must be a valid reason for the disciplinary action and the action justified. Just breaking company rules may not be sufficient.”

 If breaking company’s rules is not a reason for bringing about disciplinary action, then what is? What is the point of having rules if they are not enforced? I work in the higher education sector where the culture seems to be based on the idea that rules, particularly for students do not need to be enforced. This means that things like getting students to wear face coverings and to social distance is very difficult-we reason with them  and put up loads of signs and indulge in agitation and propaganda, but a small hard core do not want to cooperate? What can you do then?

 

Edited by user 03 February 2021 13:52:59(UTC)  | Reason: words and thgings

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CptBeaky on 03/02/2021(UTC)
Kate  
#12 Posted : 03 February 2021 12:26:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

If rules are broken in ignorance of what the rules are or with good intentions, disciplinary action is not the right response.

O'Donnell54548  
#13 Posted : 03 February 2021 12:38:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

Originally Posted by: Eddkeeper Go to Quoted Post

I need a bit of advice here. 

A work colleague has removed all external safety signage.  What are the options as far as an employer is concerned.  It is clearly a breach of their terms of employment, not to damage or interfere with company property. Are there any issues from a HASWA or regulations aspect that need to be brought to the table?  

Your thoughts please.

No reply as to reason for removal. This has all the hallmarks of a rhetorical question????

A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 03 February 2021 14:03:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

“If rules are broken in ignorance of what the rules are or with good intentions, disciplinary action is not the right response.”

If the rules have not been published and made known to staff and others, then they are not rules- I am not even sure that they are even good intentions.  Pointless bum fodder possibly.

If someone can break the rules with “good intentions” then they have been badly drafted, probably as a knee jerk to some incident.

I am assuming that  in the original posting  there was some sort of rule that said something like:

“safety signage is only to be put up by authorised persons, to inform people of hazards in the workplace.  It is not to be removed or altered, amended or removed unless it is by an authorised person for a valid reason” .

There should also be a rule to ensure that the rules are followed and  managers and the like convey the rules to staff.

Otherwise, we have anarchy, chaos and confusion.     

Kate  
#15 Posted : 04 February 2021 07:51:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Suppose some overhead safety signs had become loose and there was an evident risk that they were going to fall down and injure someone.

Then suppose someone took them down in the interests of their and others' safety.

Should they be disciplined?

A Kurdziel  
#16 Posted : 04 February 2021 12:02:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

 Ok since we are looking to see how far we can push the rules: someone takes the signs down because they believe that they an imminent hazard, it is then incumbent on them to inform someone that the sign has been taken and assuming that the hazard that the sign  is warning people  about is still present, they also, should put up a temporary  sign or even lock off the hazardous area.

Of course, the main problem with signs is not that people take them down but leave them up when they are no longer required. So, ignoring safety signs becomes custom and practice and we are back to chaos and anarchy.   

Kate  
#17 Posted : 04 February 2021 14:54:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I would never assume that the hazard the sign was warning about was ever there in the first place let alone that it is still there!

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A Kurdziel on 04/02/2021(UTC)
ttxela  
#18 Posted : 04 February 2021 15:43:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Like Douglas Bader said 'rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools' 

Of course if he had ended up in court he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.....

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A Kurdziel on 05/02/2021(UTC), Mark-W on 08/02/2021(UTC)
nic168  
#19 Posted : 08 February 2021 10:08:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
nic168

Edd- as the original poster can you confirm that these were "official" signs there for a genuine purpose?. I have previously had problems with a local safety rep putting up signs all over the place and an irritated member of staff following them around and taking them them down.

 

O'Donnell54548  
#20 Posted : 16 February 2021 15:20:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

The silence from Edd is deafening on this. Please do not use this forum for bogus questions

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