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SafetySue02  
#1 Posted : 24 February 2021 17:39:23(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
SafetySue02

Hi, I am looking for some help to resolve an on going debate with some electrics which are to be installed down our yard.  This is to power some storage shipping containers and a large store shed. I want to run 90 meters of 25mm 4 core SWA cable as a long term measure.  The path to get this where i need it has numerous established trees and i simply have no hope of installing the cable in the ground. I can not see any legilsation that states that this would have to be buried. This is on the perimeter line where no one walks and so i was thinking about installing a conduit along the fence, clearly labelled. Is this acceptable or am i missing something?

One contractor that i have approached is attempting to get me to install conduit complete with its own posts, which to me does not seem logical and also i face the problem of not being able to install posts because of the tree roots.

Any help / advice really would be appreciated.

paul.skyrme  
#2 Posted : 24 February 2021 20:39:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

You seem to have done the design for the job by deciding what cable and route earthing system etc. just finish the design and hand that over to the contractor to price against then sign the design section of the certification against BS 7671 and then you can get what you want?

Acorns  
#3 Posted : 25 February 2021 07:47:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Acorns

It reads like something any sparky could answer from if you didn't want to rea the 18th edition regs.  My understanding was your type of cable when run overground is exposed , as I understand it's so you can see if it's been damaged etc.   As for the posts, some like dedicated support ( not a bad idea) but not sure it's a requirement.  

SafetySue02  
#4 Posted : 25 February 2021 08:45:29(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
SafetySue02

Many thanks for your comments.  I have read through 18th edition and can not find any stipulated requirement therefore i was thinking of cost vs risk, and risk assessment approach. Digging the channel would result in the removal of 20+ trees on the perimeter which was a requirement when we moved into the yard and not something i want to complete, in addition would have extensive costs. There is an adequate fence along which no one accesses it is simply a boundary, therefore i was thinking conduit with approatiate labelling incase we have any intruders, would tick all of the boxes and balance cost vs risk.

Unfortuantly the electrician that i have found is not the most helpful and so i am also in the process of looking for a new one and also i have requested them to justify their intent i.e. what regulations they are making they decissions upon. I just want to ensure at the same time they are not trying to rip me off, like the first quote that i have had back and we are using realistic measures to get the works completed.

paul.skyrme  
#5 Posted : 25 February 2021 09:21:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Cost Vs Risk is fine, but why should the contractor take your risk decisions on their liability.

If you want the job done a certain way, then you have to take liability for your decisions and accept that via a legally binding statement that transfers the liability from the contractor to yourself (company etc.).

You will not find anything in BS 7671 that states specifically which cables are suitable for which installation methods.

The cable must be installed to meet the potential external influences that it will be subject to.

An SWA can be run on the surface externally on the floor if terminated correctly; however, the installation method's safety will rely on the termination being correct.

The following are just a few things for you to consider regarding the electrical design, which will not be spelt out in black and white in bS 7671, but still must be answered.

Is a 25mm 4C even the right sized cable for the load?

Non-linear loads?

Solar loading on the cable affecting the cable ccc?

What about earthing?

What about volt drop?

What about external influences at the load end?

What are the external influences that the cable is likely to be subject to during its installed life?

How critical is the supply?

If the area around the trees is subject to grounds works, and the cable is damaged, could the load end cope with being off supply until it is safely repaired?

Is the cable route to be at ground level?

If not, how do you propose to stop the cable from "blowing in the wind"?

achrn  
#6 Posted : 25 February 2021 14:04:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: paul.skyrme Go to Quoted Post

The following are just a few things for you to consider

But with teh exception of solar gain and wind loading, none of those things become an issue that needs considering for an above-ground installation and not for below-ground, and a buried cable route brings its own problems that an above-ground route doesn't have (like, knowing exactly where it is).

I think a response that says basically just trust your electrician is far from helpful.  It may come as news to you, but not every tradesman everywhere is a beacon of helpfulness who always has the best interests of his client at heart.  Some are lazy, some are incompetent, some just want to do it the way they always do it.

A question 'my elecrtrician says I have to bury it, is there actually any legislation / regulation / rules that say that' seems a perfectly reasonable question, and does not (in my opinion) deserve a lecture about how idiots should leave electrics to the professionals (which is most definitely the tone here).

paul.skyrme  
#7 Posted : 26 February 2021 07:27:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: paul.skyrme Go to Quoted Post

The following are just a few things for you to consider

But with teh exception of solar gain and wind loading, none of those things become an issue that needs considering for an above-ground installation and not for below-ground, and a buried cable route brings its own problems that an above-ground route doesn't have (like, knowing exactly where it is).

I think a response that says basically just trust your electrician is far from helpful.  It may come as news to you, but not every tradesman everywhere is a beacon of helpfulness who always has the best interests of his client at heart.  Some are lazy, some are incompetent, some just want to do it the way they always do it.

A question 'my elecrtrician says I have to bury it, is there actually any legislation / regulation / rules that say that' seems a perfectly reasonable question, and does not (in my opinion) deserve a lecture about how idiots should leave electrics to the professionals (which is most definitely the tone here).

Actually, almost exactly the opposite.

However, I do see two issues.  Dubious “electrician”, and a client that wants to dictate design considerations on the electrician, but seems unwilling to take on the liability for their design decisions under EAWR, by providing a design for the “electrician” to quote against.

There are many so called “electricians” these days that I would not trust to change a fuse in a 13A plug, let alone design a 3ph sub main to metallic outbuildings.

Unfortunately a course on BS7671 does not make a person an electrical designer, nor an electrician.

The reason for the list was to try and enlighten the  OP as to things that they could ensure that the "electrician" is considering.

Poor design and installation work is not confined to small "one person" electrical companies it spreads right through to large national organisations also, I have even seen downright dangerous designs come from international design consultancies.  Especially when it comes to earthing.

The electrical installation landscape is changing, and due to the due process that has to be undertaken when updating, BS7671, it is always behind the curve.

Unfortunately there is a large percentage of "electricians" who do not value CPD and consider it an unnecessary expense.

In the domestic market you have many operators who do work cheap and without the correct considerations of their work on the existing installation, correct design, correct verification of safety & provision of correct documentation, but the householders are happy because their hot tub works, they don't know. or care if it's potentially lethal, because the job was cheap, less than half the price of an "electrician" who wanted to do it correctly, and no VAT because they paid cash...

In a business undertaking, hopefully the person ordering the work will be pushing for certification, but as far as the rest goes, assessment of the effect on the existing installation, correct consideration of the hazards posed by the incoming supply, how the modification will affect things, connected loads and how these have changed, earthing and the influence of external effects on that, etc. etc., the client in business will likely be unaware of.  Plus they have budget constraints which mean the client wants it cheap, and will try to pass liability to the “electrician”.  Unfortunately, there are many “electricians” who are happy to take on this liability cheap without realising it exists.  Then there are those who are just downright dangerous, like the two who are currently on trial following the death of a child in a public house.

The issue with large contractors is ensuring that the actual work done is compliant with the design etc. because the persons doing the work do not have to be qualified, even if the company holds registration with the biggest electrical scheme provider.

Unfortunately, I am going to say that reading BS 7671 is not adequate to make a person competent to undertake the design, not question in detail the proposal.

For example, whilst a 25mm sq. 4c SWA may carry the current, based on the tables in BS7671, what are the installation conditions along the length, thus giving the installed current carrying capacity.  If the OP has selected this size, have they selected the correct BS for the cable to refer to the correct table, there are 2 with different operating temperatures.  The higher rating is unlikely to be compatible with smaller switchgear (small in this case may be up to several hundred amps).

The thing that really rung alarm bells for me was the OP stating “to power some storage containers and a large storage shed, I want to run 90m of 25mm  4 core SWA as a long term measure”.

If the OP is confident in their selection of cable, and feels that they could defend their design against EAWR, then I would suggest they complete it and hand it over for quote, and take responsibility, however I don’t think that without additional competence, a read of BS7671 would be an adequate defence under Reg 29 if it ent wrong.

The electrical contractor may not be creative enough to think outside the box with regard to installation methods also.  So I suspect that they may not be the correct person to do the design either.

My final point here is that unfortunately, products and the electrical landscape are changing so quickly bare compliance with BS7671 alone is unfortunately often inadequate due to external influences on the installation that are either not advised to the electrical installation designer by the client, or, the client is unaware of and the “electrician” is not competent to identify.

 

Acorns  
#8 Posted : 26 February 2021 08:06:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Acorns

You could lay some above and some below.  I don't see the problem!  Think about the cables over, under and alongside the railways.  What happened when you got the 2nd quote?

chris42  
#9 Posted : 26 February 2021 09:32:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

We don’t really know if it was the op or their contractor that supplied the first quote that decided on the size of cable and everything. The issue the op had was simply does such a cable need to be on its own dedicated posts or would it be acceptable for the conduit carrying the cable to be fixed to existing fence posts.

Now the contractor could want to use separate posts because they want to increase the value of the job or because they believe it is necessary. That is as Paul has noted because they have always done it, or because it is written somewhere (or their training said it).

Now whether acceptable or not may even depend on the type of fence or what exactly is the other side. Now increasingly things like trees to shield the locals from your ugly workplace is becoming more common, and in some instances good for helping keep noise down. This may make people touchy about anything that may affect a tree. Losing one root per tree because you dug a hole for a post should not affect a mature tree, don’t see why you would need to dig a trench for posts, just holes.

I agree with Paul with regard competencies, we have had some dubious contractors turn up in the past, who were members of all sorts of “Tufty Clubs”. We now also check the actual qualifications of the person who will do the work, to see if they have at least been trained to do the work they are quoting for. (Thanks to Paul for taking time to help me understand a few years ago). However still a can of worms normally.

Either way the only question is, does an overground cable need to be on its own posts or can fence posts be used (wooden or metal palisade type)? I guess a second question may be if it is acceptable are there any conditions?

We all know us H&S people must know the answer to every question that could possibly ever be asked, by anyone. The problem is you ask 10 H&S people a question and you get 21 different points of view with a couple of people abstaining because they want more info.

You would have thought that somewhere the official guidance would clarify the issue of correct installation, otherwise it is a free for all with people’s opinions.

My answer would be to get three quotes including who the work needs to be done and see if they all say the same (or if two of the 3 agree). Even then it may be flip a coin, sorry.

Chris

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 26 February 2021 09:45:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I happen to be proud of my (RoSPA) Tufty Club membership.

Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 26 February 2021 09:45:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I happen to be proud of my (RoSPA) Tufty Club membership.

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