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KaterinaPeshikj  
#1 Posted : 11 March 2021 10:00:45(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
KaterinaPeshikj

Hello,

I'm working in this field for 6 years.

And in any organization, the position of HSE employees was in the CEO cabinet, to the highest decision-maker.

Now, I'm working at a new production plant and my position as HSE coordinator is in the HR department.

I don't know how to explain to my managers and CEO that this position is under the wrong department because for everything I need approval from my HR manager (who doesn't have any experience in occupational safety)  and there is a lot of wasting time because he is my supervisor and I just waiting for him to forward my emails. 

My CEO asking for any "legal" document, and where it is written that my job position must be to the highest decision-maker.

Please for help.

Regards,   

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 11 March 2021 11:16:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

In the UK there is no "legal" definition for where competent Health & Safety advice to a business should sit within the organisation as there is no statutory requirement to actually and directly employ an advisor.

My first role in H&S was reporting to the Personnel Manager (nowadays called Human Resources Manager).

Over the decades I have been lucky to report directly to the MD or CEO. I have also reported to the Finance Director, Technical Manager - basically anywhere the employers organisational arrangements saw fit.

As to a CEO actually having any better understanding of H&S than your direct line manager I very much doubt it - one of the measures of senior management is how much can be delegated down to others.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 11/03/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 11/03/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 11 March 2021 11:16:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

In the UK there is no "legal" definition for where competent Health & Safety advice to a business should sit within the organisation as there is no statutory requirement to actually and directly employ an advisor.

My first role in H&S was reporting to the Personnel Manager (nowadays called Human Resources Manager).

Over the decades I have been lucky to report directly to the MD or CEO. I have also reported to the Finance Director, Technical Manager - basically anywhere the employers organisational arrangements saw fit.

As to a CEO actually having any better understanding of H&S than your direct line manager I very much doubt it - one of the measures of senior management is how much can be delegated down to others.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 11/03/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 11/03/2021(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#4 Posted : 11 March 2021 11:25:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

In my role I don't even have a defined position. I only answer (directly) to the directors on anything H&S related, but I still take my day to day orders from the factory manager for any "additional" duties that may arrise. To be honest I don't even have a specified job title, I am just "H&S".

I also take on a small amount of HR, help run the documentational side of the engineering department and, currently, run the COVID-19 testing. Moving forward it accepted that QA will take over the time that COVID-19 currently uses up.

I think the long and short of it is that you are placed wherever those in charge want you to be. Afterall, if the proverbial does hit the fan it is up to them to prove they had placed you in the correct position. That being said, you can always appeal to the CEO to allocate the H&S resources better.

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 11/03/2021(UTC)
achrn  
#5 Posted : 11 March 2021 11:28:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

As noted, there's no legal requirement (that I know of, anyway).

The best you can hope for is probably a reference to one of the H&S quality standards.  For example, ISO45001 says "Top management shall demonstrate leadership and commitment with respect to the OH&S management system" and you could try arguing that top management could prove their comitment by having the relevant people reporting directly.

However, the flaw with this is that ISO45001 is not a legal requirement, and top management could argue that they have demonstrated comitment by identifying that the HR manager is best placed to consider and act on the reporting from the HSE coordinator. 

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 11 March 2021 11:33:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Katerina, perhaps the problem is not so much where you sit within the organisation but the rules for communication.

If you cannot send ANY email, report etc without sign off by a line manager, then your hands are severely tied, and more so if your line manager does not have your level of specialist understanding.

Usually, I would expect some rules (whether written or not) that set out your autonomy to communicate without someone else's sign off, and direction as to where anything should be signed off or routed  via someone else.

So, as example, I should imagine that the CEO does NOT want to see everything you produce. They are likely to have views as to either what they want to be included in on your circulation list, or when others should escalate what you say to them.

In 29 years working for the same company before and after it was acquired I have had all sorts of reporting arrangements and all sorts of written and unwritten rules as to how I should communicate and to whom.

As my role in the company progressively moved from a position where my concern was almost entirely about internal compliance to one which was almost entirely client facing, so those rules changed accordingly.

So, my suggestion is that your starting point is to talk to your line manager and ask whether they actually want to vet everything you want to say before distribution. They probably don't, particularly if it means them taking on responsibility for the quality of what you say, when the subject matter may be out of their depth - which is precisely why you are in post.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Kate on 12/03/2021(UTC), aud on 15/03/2021(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 11 March 2021 14:24:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

It has less to do with the organogram and more to do with the personalities involved. Some CEOs’ are very on the ball and deal with H&S matters well. Others tend to delegate (maybe abdicate) all their responsibilities to H&S. if H&S are a stand alone  unit then they will have difficulty enforcing policies etc without calling on the CEO’s authority all of the time. It might therefore be easier of they work with HR but then again in some organisations, it is clear that while H&S is seen as protecting  the staff from work related hazards HR’s role is in protecting the organisation  from its own employees! Operations might be a good fit and even a compliance department might be a good fit. But they all have downsides as well.  With the right people it does not really matter where H&S fits as long as they are listened to and their advice is taken into account.

Acorns  
#8 Posted : 11 March 2021 17:47:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Acorns

Hi Katerina, do you have to have everything singed off by the HR Manager or can you do somethings yourself and report to them after the decision or action has been made?  As the above have suggested, the top line of management may not want or need to be read into everything you do.  Is there an H&S manager as well or are you 'the H&S person"?   If, for example you wanted to send a comment to a contractor about how their staff have opeated on site, would that have to go via the HR Manager or can you do it directly?  If the former then thats fine, if its the latter then it sounds like the HRM has some delegation issues.  You could do the old overload appraoch and send them a copy of EVERYTHING you do until the point comes where they either crumble or apply a degree of common sense.   There are lots of ways this could be opened up, one of which is to have a chat with the HR Manager and come up with an agreement as to what must be signed off and what doesn't and move forward from there.  At this stage I wouldn't consider the vague innuendo that if any of your reports that should be suitable to go to directors are blocked that the 'blame/fault/responsibility would lay with the HRManager.  They probably kow already and thats why they are so cautious. 

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