Hi Matelot

Why would you want to outsource this in entirety (as against bringing in a specialist to provide guidance)?

Confined spaces come in all shapes and sizes and some are not even fully enclosed.

Your six confined spaces might be dissimilar in parts, and you might conclude that you wanted to classify them by levels of risk either in normal conditions and/or when specific tasks are done. If those doing the work are not involved in the assessment of the risks, then it is quite likely that outsourcing would reach inappropriate decisions.

As example, most of the water companies in the UK classify their confined spaces at levels 1-3, with an additional category 4 when things like welding are done so as to exacerbate the risks.

Imagine the very simple scenario as a culvert under a road. It might be so safe as to be designed as a route for mammals [there is specific guidance on culvert design published by the Construction Industry Research and Information Association, CIRIA]. But in flood conditions it becomes very dangerous for humans or other mammals, so falls within the definition of "confined space".

Make that culvert much bigger and run overground trains regularly through it, the trains themselves ventilate the tunnel and, if it is not that long, the atmosphere will generally be absolutely OK. Stop running trains or put in some welders and the scenario can change markedly. 

Hi Matelot

One of the facts of life for most health and safety professionals is "too much work and not enough people"!

So, what do you do when you outsource the entirety of this work and an external consultant quite reasonably takes a conservative "worst case scenario" approach to the six confined spaces and advocates?

e.g. that all entry be done with self-contained breathing apparatus and that six engineers and others all go on a 3-5 day course + you buy six (perhaps more) multigas monitors and buy in someone to do the maintenance and thorough examination of those, and may be you will need six air blowers for use at the ingress + six exhaust ventilation units as well.

Oh, and they tell you to replace all the electrics in the six confined spaces with Ex rated kit, which in turn means that you are likely to disturb some asbestos containing materials.

The potential can of worms that you could UNNECESSARILY open up by not keeping control of the overall risk is endless.

In contrast you could work on a game plan based on your understanding of these six spaces and what needs to be done and how often and for what duration - by all means ask for some outside help in drawing up that plan. Depending on the outside help, they may or may not try and overegg the pudding, but if they do, it is quite likely to be relatively obvious that this is what they are doing.

Hi Matelot

I think that perhaps you have instinctively accepted that outsourcing the entirety of this exercise is a risky strategy in that your reference to overegging responds in effect only to the last paragraph of my second reply.

You have to have a basic game plan in mind to be able to make a coherent decision as to when a consultant is overegging the pudding.

Which implies a recognition of a need to give that consultant a clear brief and inputting into how that brief is executed before and during their work. Without such input it is very unlikely that any risk assessment (and all that follows from the risk assessment) would meet legislative requirements OR meet those requirements without excessive resources.

Your analogy of a fire risk assessment is relatively apt, though a little problematic in the middle of the Grenfell Inquiry. The assessor would need to know whether they are assessing Windsor Castle, Wakefield Prison, a Walmart supermarket, Wrigley's Spearmint factory, Wolverhampton station, or maintenance of Winchester bypass OR a mix of such places. Some of the differences are readily visible, some less so. If you don't enable them to get the necessary information, they should reasonably resort to making conservative assumptions about issues such as occupancy levels and types of occupants.

A bit of investment in defining the brief is likely to save lots of tears down the line. You should know how confined your confined spaces are and why to enable you to define a brief that is likely to produce an effective outcome.

Hi Matelot, I know someone who may be able to help.  Please let me know the location of your confined spaces and I'll ask him if he is interested.

Originally Posted by: matelot1965

Hi Peter,

It's a simple matter of too much work and not enough people. If we can get the basics in place we can modify on a needs basis

hi Matelot, I can see it as a sound decision to recognise the company's shortfalls and seek more specific help.  As you say, if they can get the core work done, that can then be blended into your other systems.  Unfortunately, can't recommend anyone.