Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
JHF  
#1 Posted : 25 August 2021 18:32:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JHF

Hi, do all risk assessments need to be signed? - in the past we have, by each operative - is still required? have differing opinions.

firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 25 August 2021 20:52:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

My view is that risk assessments should be done by someone who knows how to, and involving the worker/s.  Could be one and the same.  Risk assessments should be signed by the originator and the worker to ensure they have been read and understood.

JHF  
#3 Posted : 25 August 2021 21:02:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JHF

Thanks, we have always got them signed by each operative, its alway been the case! Some have expressed an opinion that they dont need signing, when signed we know they have read them. Thanks. 

Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 25 August 2021 22:14:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Every where I have worked such documents always include an operator signing sheet.

The $64,000 question no one ever answers is what value can be placed upon the "X" on the paper.

People think it proves the operator has read, understood and agrees to comply with the written content.

All it proves is a mark was made on a piece of paper.

To have the validity anticipated/expected it actually requires a form of legal witness.

Most times the supervisor providing the briefing can't even be bothered to counter sign the operator.

Good luck proving the IP had received sufficient instruction & training!

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
andrewcl on 02/12/2021(UTC), andrewcl on 02/12/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 25 August 2021 22:14:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Every where I have worked such documents always include an operator signing sheet.

The $64,000 question no one ever answers is what value can be placed upon the "X" on the paper.

People think it proves the operator has read, understood and agrees to comply with the written content.

All it proves is a mark was made on a piece of paper.

To have the validity anticipated/expected it actually requires a form of legal witness.

Most times the supervisor providing the briefing can't even be bothered to counter sign the operator.

Good luck proving the IP had received sufficient instruction & training!

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
andrewcl on 02/12/2021(UTC), andrewcl on 02/12/2021(UTC)
Kate  
#6 Posted : 26 August 2021 08:26:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Signing risk assessments is of zero value.

What you need is for the workers to understand how to do their work safely.  Getting them to sign a risk assessment doesn't even contribute to that aim.  Discussing the main points of the risk assessment with them, giving them training, observing them and giving them feedback, and answering their questions - those are the kind of things that can contribute to that aim.  Those are all much harder of course than saying "Sign this declaration that you have read and understood", not even backed up by any evidence that they have actually read it or actually understood it or that it actually conveyed anything useful.

thanks 8 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
chris.packham on 26/08/2021(UTC), HSSnail on 26/08/2021(UTC), RVThompson on 26/08/2021(UTC), peter gotch on 27/08/2021(UTC), mihai_qa on 28/08/2021(UTC), SammyK on 31/08/2021(UTC), nic168 on 01/09/2021(UTC), aud on 05/09/2021(UTC)
dennish  
#7 Posted : 26 August 2021 08:33:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dennish

 If you are asking all employees to read and sign a risk assessment i am assuming that you have trained each and everyone so they actually undertsand what a risk assessment is, why's etc ??.

Employees should be made of the significant risk's which is usually outlined within any specific SSOW, Training etc that would have been generated by the findings and controls of the risk assessment.

thanks 1 user thanked dennish for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 01/09/2021(UTC)
HSSnail  
#8 Posted : 26 August 2021 09:01:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

I agree with Kate (again - getting to be a habit this morning). When i was an inspector people were always amazed that i did not care that staff were or were not signing RA. Unless they could back them up with training, monitoring etc the signatures were worthless.

How many people sign a sales agreement and don’t read the small print?

thanks 2 users thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
peter gotch on 27/08/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 01/09/2021(UTC)
JHF  
#9 Posted : 26 August 2021 09:20:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JHF

Thanks for the above. All operatives have been trained / instructed etc. in activities, certain jobs (re abrasive wheels, ladders, FLTs etc.) they have completed a suitable course, they are supervised and monitored.

MrBrightside  
#10 Posted : 27 August 2021 08:16:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrBrightside

I have always found this an odd one, they did it in my current place or work and previous places too. I've always been of the view that the risk assessment is a management tool, but I would imagine its the part about making sure employees have been made aware of the hazards and controls required, where companies get employees to sign.

It would be like getting someone to read and sign the Haynes manual before learning to drive a car.

We make people aware via inductions, safe systems of work, training, signage etc, which it sounds like your already doing. There is zero worth to someone signing to say they have read and understood the risk assessment and will the controls.

thanks 1 user thanked MrBrightside for this useful post.
aud on 05/09/2021(UTC)
pseudonym  
#11 Posted : 27 August 2021 13:01:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pseudonym

It's the findings from the RA that the workers need to know about - that could be a simple as "if you stand where you should, wearing what you should and press these buttons, then everythings fine!" If everyone had to read all the RAs applicable to their role it could take ages - plus factor in mother tongue, literacy, dyslexia, technical jargon and you have a whole bunch of other problems. 

Plus of course, I've read loads of things in my time, how many I can remember at any particular point is very much open to question. So, for me - NO operators don't have to sign RAs 

thanks 3 users thanked pseudonym for this useful post.
peter gotch on 27/08/2021(UTC), SammyK on 31/08/2021(UTC), aud on 05/09/2021(UTC)
peter gotch  
#12 Posted : 27 August 2021 13:50:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

JHF - nothing in law suggests that getting people to sign risk assessments or method statements is required.

Lots of organisations do it as one of their unnecessarily bureaucratic* tick box exercises and think that it will offer some protection when something goes wrong (which it probably won't).

*Possibly the ISO accreditation is dependent on doing this - if so possibly time to change the system that is accredited to avoid unnecessary prescription!

There are more valuable ways of checking whether workers understand what they need to do to play their part in how an organisation seeks to run safely yet proportionately, e.g. those which Kate has pointed to.

If you were to e.g. get a worker to sign off a risk assessment saying that they will keep their hands away from an unguarded drill the risk assessment is unlikely to be worth the paper (or electronic equivalent) that it is written on UNLESS there is a valid reason why the guard cannot be used.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 31/08/2021(UTC), aud on 05/09/2021(UTC)
Kate  
#13 Posted : 27 August 2021 14:44:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I am happy to be able to clarify that there is no such requirement prescribed in ISO 45001, and nor was there in its predecessor OHSAS 18001.  Furthermore in both the organisations with ISO/OHSAS certs that I have worked for, we didn't get operators to sign risk assessments and none of the external auditors seemed at all concerned by this or ever suggested that it would be an improvement to do so.

I think this supposed requirement is more likely to originate in the hope that such a signature would be useful in defending legal action.

peter gotch  
#14 Posted : 27 August 2021 14:54:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Kate - agreed - the ISO standard doesn't require it but organisations get into tangles with document control and so devise their own systems that require lots of signatures - completely unnecessary, but once done, if those signatures do not materialise then it puts the accreditation against 45001 (or other standard) at risk.

So, the solution is to either not include those signatures in the system in the first place, or to amend what is there to remove self-imposed problems!

Organisations have a habit of devising systems that tie them up in completely unnecessary knots. 

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Kate on 27/08/2021(UTC)
JohnW  
#15 Posted : 28 August 2021 11:36:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

As a consultant, I assist managers in the writing of risk assessments, explaining that the document will be a record that managers have considered the hazards of the job or the equipment. A team supervisor or foreman will be involved and where appropriate operators, to confirm that the manager actually knows how the job is done and what should be included in the training if new operators. In smaller businesses it’s the manager and myself who sign the document, paper or word.doc. The operators then have a SSOW which includes job set-up, PPE, which buttons to press, keep good posture, keep tidy, keep within HAV trigger times etc etc
craigroberts76  
#16 Posted : 30 August 2021 09:38:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
craigroberts76

If questioned, how easy would it be to say "that signature wasnt mine", especially if its digital? Our techs are trained in how to read and understand OUR RAMS format, it winds me up when clients want it in THEIR format to make their job easier in checking. They do not seem to understand or care that its a piece of paper regardless what format its in, but instead trust that training has taken place and is sufficient,

A Kurdziel  
#17 Posted : 01 September 2021 08:41:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Some organisations have made a cult of signatures; they seem to think that something written in ink(rather than blood!) on a piece of paper will somehow protect the business if it all goes wrong. Of course it doesn’t. From the purely legal point of view an employer cannot transfer responsibility  to his employees. Employees also get wound up about being made to sign documents which seem to drop the onus on them. Nevertheless, if you are working to some sort of quality system signatures(including electronic signatures)  have a role to play as long as people understand exactly what they mean. If you are drafting any sort of document, be it a risk assessment or  method system or  policy it should be clear who the author is and when it was created. The signature means(or should mean) that the author has produced the document to the best of their abilities and that it is authorised for use in that organisation. When the work  to assigned to individuals it  makes sense for them to sign it indicating that they have read and understood it and that they are capable of carrying this procedure according to the document. As Bryan said the signed document by itself is worthless unless it is back up by training and evidence of competence. There  should also be a mechanism for which enables the person not the sign the document either because they feel themselves not to competent or they feel the document is wrong and needs a review/amendment. I don’t think many organisations adopt this approach: they simple want a written signature on piece of paper which is totally worthless

stevedm  
#18 Posted : 02 September 2021 09:00:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

ok guys the alternative view...having gone down the route of non-signature and sigatures across a number of sites it boils down to this...

we lost an EL case because the person did not sign to say they had read the risk assessment....so although not a legal requirement and I agree with all the comments, a signature whereever you have it to demonstrate that you have provided or communicated to the individual the outcomes or the RA itself in my view is required...trust everyone just don't trust the devil inside them... ;)

thanks 1 user thanked stevedm for this useful post.
Alan Haynes on 02/09/2021(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#19 Posted : 02 September 2021 10:40:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I have just had another look at Craig’s comment especially the bit about “how easy would it be to say "that signature wasn’t mine", especially if its digital”.  it  looks like people misunderstand what a “digital signature” is . In many organisations a digital signature consists of  a scanned image of a written signature which can be appended to a word document or a pdf file. Such a thing is of course worthless as anybody can take a scanned image  and stick it where they like. A proper digital signature is something that is appended to an electronic document and can only appended by the signee. For example we use a document control system. When I create a new document, I  have  to log onto the system with my password and authorise the document. Only I can do that, and it is a permanent record that I have authorised the document.  That is an electronic signature not the squiggle I add to some documents at the insistence of some office muppet.

Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 02 September 2021 11:10:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electronic-signatures

guidance from BEIS regarding S.I. 2016 No. 696 for those wanting a bit of CPD study

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 02/09/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 02/09/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#21 Posted : 02 September 2021 11:10:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electronic-signatures

guidance from BEIS regarding S.I. 2016 No. 696 for those wanting a bit of CPD study

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 02/09/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 02/09/2021(UTC)
stevedm  
#22 Posted : 03 September 2021 10:19:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

the relevant legislation is the eIDAS which was a 2016 EU directive now part of UK legislation.

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-eidas/what-is-the-eidas-regulation/

Either way proof either way is always the killer...at the end of the day it really dependa how good your legal team is v thier on the day..  :)

A Kurdziel  
#23 Posted : 03 September 2021 11:04:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

If we are looking at signatures from the legal point of view (which is somewhat off the original topic but that’s what this forum does!) the courts tend to treat a signature at face value; so if someone presents a piece of paper with signature on it as evidence in court it is accepted as valid unless someone can prove(on the balance of probabilities)  it’s not. If someone was to deny a signature was theirs’s in court they would get a rough time during cross examination, unless they could provide evidence that it was forged. For example if a signature was used to prove that they had attended a particular training activity and they were able to show that they were away on leave on that day, then yes that would demonstrate that the signature could have been forged  but simply saying I did not sign is not enough.  

mholloway  
#24 Posted : 03 September 2021 11:53:58(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mholloway

RAMS should as we all know be completed by a competent person.  That person will sign the risk assessment.  However that person may not be the one undertaking the tasks.  I have always added a signature list at the end of the RAMS for operatives, staff etc to sign.  I do include a statement.  "I have read and understand this risk assessment".  Of course there is an expectation that the persons carrying out the tasks are trained, experienced, competent etc.  Too many people write RAMS then file them without sharing with their workforce!     

thanks 1 user thanked mholloway for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 03/09/2021(UTC)
Users browsing this topic
Guest (3)
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.