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hardworkingdude  
#1 Posted : 18 October 2021 08:18:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hardworkingdude

So we had an employee who decided to arrange the stock in their van outside of their contracted hours, whilst carrying out said task, an item from a shelf fell (employee feels he must have not put it in the shelf correctly), to break the fall of this item, the employee moved his leg forward and it fell square on his kneecap. Long story short the employee is out of work for two weeks. 

I would really appreciate your support on the following questions:

a) Is this work related, since the employee decided to complete this task outside of work hours?

b) Would this be RIDDOR reportable?

c) Personally I feel the business is not liable as the employee breached their section 7 responsibilities by performing an Act that put them in danger when it wasn't neccessary, I say this knowing (and always trying) to ensure we don't just blame employees for accidents and try to find the root cause. In this scenario there was no need to carry out this task outside of work hours, there was ample time during work hours.  

d) What Action can I take to prevent this happening? My initial thoughts are to remind everyone of their section 7 responsibilities and to ensure they RA every task and ensure they are carried out during the hours of work

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 18 October 2021 08:45:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Well for what it’s worth here are my answers:

  1. Is this work related since the employee decided to complete this task outside of work hours?

It is work related since he was doing something he would do at work. Hours have nothing  do with it

 

  1. Would this be RIDDOR reportable?

Yes, why not. As I (and others)  keep saying, RIDDOR is  nothing to do with liability; it is simply recording that something happened at work. I can’t imagine the HSE will send in a team of investigators to  go over the van and shelf with a fine tooth comb. They will just record it and move on.  

 

  1. Personally I feel the business is not liable as the employee breached their section 7 responsibilities by performing an Act that put them in danger when it wasn't necessary, I say this knowing (and always trying) to ensure we don't just blame employees for accidents and try to find the root cause. In this scenario there was no need to carry out this task outside of work hours, there was ample time during work hours. 

As far as legal liability goes, I don’t think that the business can be held liable unless it was proved that he was following instructions to do this at that time in that way, or that the shelf, as supplied by the company  was faulty. On the other hand it could be that he had never been told how to put up that type of shelf in that type of van then it might be different. In reality it is down to whatever your insurer says.

 

  1. What Action can I take to prevent this happening? My initial thoughts are to remind everyone of their section 7 responsibilities and to ensure they RA every task and ensure they are carried out during the hours of work

As well as picking on your staff you could also tell your managers about their duties, under sections 36 and 37. Then we can talk about things like toolbox talks-how to put up a shelf in a van without it falling down-what tools and components  you need and what to do if you find that you can’t do it straight way but are away from base and might be tempted to bodge the job.

You can also review the RAMS etc that have been done. Ask if people actually follow them.

How are they being supervised etc.

  

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Kate on 18/10/2021(UTC), HSSnail on 18/10/2021(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#3 Posted : 18 October 2021 09:16:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I agree with A Kurdziel.

It is a work realated activity, he was moving box for work purposes.

I admit to being slightly concerned that you seem to be focusing so strongly on avoiding blame. Maybe it is just the way it comes across when written down. Whilst reminding employees on section 7, you may want to re-visit section 2(2b). You need to ensure (SFARP) safety and absence of risks to health in connection with the use, handling, storage and transport of articles and substances. Also 2(2c) you need to ensure sufficient supervision (SFARP), which if he was working out of hours never happened.

I would also look to review the manual handling training, the storage of the articles and any manual handling risk assessment and lone working, if that is what happened here. Remember if you are looking for a "root cause" for this accident, it is almost always a management failing.

I assume you mean "liable" to prosecution, for which I would suggest probably not. Liablility to a civil claim is never as black and white. You do owe them a duty of care, and they were injured. It really depends on whether you could have done something reasonable that would have avoided the accident, such as supervising better, better training, better storage etc.

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
HSSnail on 18/10/2021(UTC)
HSSnail  
#4 Posted : 18 October 2021 09:59:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: hardworkingdude Go to Quoted Post

c) Personally I feel the business is not liable as the employee breached their section 7 responsibilities by performing an Act that put them in danger when it wasn't neccessary, I say this knowing (and always trying) to ensure we don't just blame employees for accidents and try to find the root cause. In this scenario there was no need to carry out this task outside of work hours, there was ample time during work hours.  

d) What Action can I take to prevent this happening? My initial thoughts are to remind everyone of their section 7 responsibilities and to ensure they RA every task and ensure they are carried out during the hours of work

I agree it is Work related and RIDDOR - what difference does time of day make? Had he done the task the followind day in work hours teh same outcome is probable.  I think your inital thought is way off for the same reason. CptBeaky has given you some good pointers.

peter gotch  
#5 Posted : 18 October 2021 10:08:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

hardworkingdude

As to RIDDOR, nothing to add to what AK has already written.

As to liability, possibly it was just an accident with nobody to "blame" - but you couldn't decide that without an investigation.

Suggest you investigate mostly as if the incident happened in normal working hours, as when the incident occurred is quite probably a red herring.

The first question would be why your employee would need to be rearranging stock in the van. Not knowing what the stock is there could be countless reasons for that.

Then, amongst other considerations, is the item that fell of a type likely to be unstable, is the storage suitable for it, is it easy to reach so as to place the item so that it is unlikely to move, are there reasons why it is readily foreseeable that someone would misplace the item etc etc.

Might be that it all comes down to how something ELSE is stored in the van that then has a domino effect in how everything else is put in.

firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 19 October 2021 18:09:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I agree it was work related and is RIDDOR reportable.

It doesn't matter when this occurred, as it was work related I assume you are already taking steps to prevent a re-occurrence.

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 19 October 2021 18:33:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: hardworkingdude Go to Quoted Post
In this scenario there was no need to carry out this task outside of work hours, there was ample time during work hours.

Exactly what would be different during working hours that would have prevented the incident?

It would still be a single employee in the back of a van.

You are only going to prevent this incident by either making the task one for several people OR changing the layout of the van - will your management support either move?

RIDDOR reportable.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 20/10/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 20/10/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 19 October 2021 18:33:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: hardworkingdude Go to Quoted Post
In this scenario there was no need to carry out this task outside of work hours, there was ample time during work hours.

Exactly what would be different during working hours that would have prevented the incident?

It would still be a single employee in the back of a van.

You are only going to prevent this incident by either making the task one for several people OR changing the layout of the van - will your management support either move?

RIDDOR reportable.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 20/10/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 20/10/2021(UTC)
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