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philleahy  
#1 Posted : 07 January 2022 15:22:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philleahy

Hi,

    looking for some advice, if a company decides not to display the H & S Law Poster (as supplied by the HSE) and takes the option to supply each worker with the equivalent health and safety law leaflet. Are they complying with the legal requirements if they copy the HSE leaflet but take off the HSE livery and image and mark up under their company name as their document and supply this, the content wording wise is accurate to the HSE leaflet. They also add a foot note that they have complied with Crown copyright.

Thanks in advance.

Phil

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 07 January 2022 16:09:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

What purpose does the editing serve?

The document is available as a free download pdf https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/lawposter.htm

which in its undoctored form is fully compliant with the regulatory requirement

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 07 January 2022 16:09:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

What purpose does the editing serve?

The document is available as a free download pdf https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/lawposter.htm

which in its undoctored form is fully compliant with the regulatory requirement

CptBeaky  
#4 Posted : 07 January 2022 16:12:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

"Employers are required, by law, to either display the HSE-approved law poster or to provide each of their workers with the equivalent leaflet (available as a free download)."

To modify the leaflet would (imho) contravene the "equivalent" section, even if the modifications were only cosmetic. I would expect the law to worded differently, if this were not the case (for example, "a leaflet with the equivalent information")

A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 07 January 2022 16:13:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

First point is I suspect that in the entire history of the HSE nobody has every been prosecuted for not having the official HSE poster or issuing leaflets etc. Hopefully the ex inspectors on the forum will put me right on that guess.

Why do you an to get rid of the HSE branding: that’s what makes it official and legal  as opposed to simply corporate policy?

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 07 January 2022 16:27:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: philleahy Go to Quoted Post
They also add a foot note that they have complied with Crown copyright.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/copyright.htm

Which is where you start to drift in to issues especially with the "Easy Read" version which requires prior written permission from the Office of Public Sector Information

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 07 January 2022 16:27:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: philleahy Go to Quoted Post
They also add a foot note that they have complied with Crown copyright.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/copyright.htm

Which is where you start to drift in to issues especially with the "Easy Read" version which requires prior written permission from the Office of Public Sector Information

johnc  
#8 Posted : 07 January 2022 16:57:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnc

The regulations require either the poster to be displayed or the leaflet to be issued to each employee. The leaflet can be downloaded free of charge but I don't believe that this can then be printed off for distribution to employees as it has the HSE logo on it. This logo is copyright to HSE and it seems that to get around that the company wants to remove it. However then the leaflet is no longer in the designated format. An e-mail to Online@hse.gov.uk will let you know what you can do or can't do.
philleahy  
#9 Posted : 07 January 2022 17:14:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philleahy

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: philleahy Go to Quoted Post
They also add a foot note that they have complied with Crown copyright.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/copyright.htm

Which is where you start to drift in to issues especially with the "Easy Read" version which requires prior written permission from the Office of Public Sector Information

Thaks for the link to copyright, reading through the below, it would seem that they have complied. They have in their footnote made reference to the original HSE leaflet which in its own footnote states that is is subject to Crown Copyright.

You are free to:

  • copy, publish, distribute and transmit the Information;
  • adapt the Information;
  • exploit the Information commercially and non-commercially for example, by combining it with other Information, or by including it in your own product or application.

philleahy  
#10 Posted : 07 January 2022 17:18:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philleahy

Originally Posted by: johnc Go to Quoted Post
The regulations require either the poster to be displayed or the leaflet to be issued to each employee. The leaflet can be downloaded free of charge but I don't believe that this can then be printed off for distribution to employees as it has the HSE logo on it. This logo is copyright to HSE and it seems that to get around that the company wants to remove it. However then the leaflet is no longer in the designated format. An e-mail to Online@hse.gov.uk will let you know what you can do or can't do.

Thanks I have posted on hse online ( a day of first's) they say allow up to 3 weeks for a reply.

Kate  
#11 Posted : 07 January 2022 17:23:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I have never in my life said this before, but ... this is health and safety gone mad!

peter gotch  
#12 Posted : 08 January 2022 16:59:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

AK - I would have to check but I think that poster or leaflet was born in the latter days of my time with HSE.

Before that the occupier of a factory had to display an abstract of the Factories Act 1961 (Form 1) and usually abstracts of various Regulations made under the Act e.g. the Woodworking Machines Regs F2470 or Highly Flammable Liquids and LPG Regs F2440. If there were people in an office they also had to display an abstract of the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act  1963, OSR1.

I don't remember any of my colleagues thinking that it would be a good idea to include an offence for failing to put up something that usually did nothing other than cover up some part of a factory that had not been repainted in the due period of time in any prosecution report they ever wrote!!

The odd specimen charge to add to the weight of the meat of the prosecution but posters on the wall? The e.g. DM would have a field day.

I didn't get particularly upset when one relatively modern factory had the wrong Woodworking Machines Regs poster on the wall - the one from 1922 rather than 1974. I was far more interested in why someone had lost bits of fingers on a circular saw and the legal requirements had not really changed between 1922 and 1974 - though in reality I was looking at the underlying reasons why someone was doing what they were doing on the saw in the first place - taking me well beyond what the WWM Regs had contemplated.

It would be possible to check whether a single case has been taken for the current poster or leaflet in the last 10 years.

www.hse.gov.uk/prosecutions

Then ADVANCED search by BREACHES rather than default CASES

Then Health and Safety (Information for Employees) Regs whatever date they were made - 1989 I think.

Then whatever the Regulation number is.

Would need to check both the current database which goes back 1 year but not updated until 9 weeks after a case is done and dusted and then the HISTORIC database which goes back to cases 1-10 years old.

My expectation would be a ZERO return.

Edited by user 08 January 2022 17:00:16(UTC)  | Reason: Same typo as 10 minutes ago!

johnc  
#13 Posted : 08 January 2022 21:24:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnc

Peter you are correct in your assumption. The HSE website shows no prosecutions re the poster or leaflet by the HSE. However I remember an EHO adding failure to fill in the sections in the original poster to a prosecution following an accident. Admittedly he did give the landlord the information to fill in but he didnt do it so it was added in.
Brian Hagyard  
#14 Posted : 10 January 2022 09:14:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: johnc Go to Quoted Post
. However I remember an EHO adding failure to fill in the sections in the original poster to a prosecution following an accident. Admittedly he did give the landlord the information to fill in but he didnt do it so it was added in.

Your jokeing? I dispare of ex collegues like that. If i had prosecuted every person who did not fill in the old poster as an inspector i would never have been out of court. I used to carry pre printed sticky lables with me and just pop them on.

thanks 1 user thanked Brian Hagyard for this useful post.
Kate on 10/01/2022(UTC)
philleahy  
#15 Posted : 10 January 2022 09:14:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philleahy

Thanks for the post's and information. I would agree this is not the most pressing matter in the world, but as I have been asked for guidance on the subject I am using all I can think of to get the correct information. This is not a question on the likeleyhood of prosecution but what is the correct way to work. I was hoping for a straight forward yes they can or no they must use this.

Thanks again.

A Kurdziel  
#16 Posted : 10 January 2022 09:20:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

”However I remember an EHO adding failure to fill in the sections in the original poster to a prosecution following an accident. Admittedly he did give the landlord the information to fill in, but he didn’t do it, so it was added in.”- that in Kate’s words is “health and safety gone mad!”

achrn  
#17 Posted : 10 January 2022 11:14:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

philleahy wrote:

Thaks for the link to copyright, reading through the below, it would seem that they have complied. They have in their footnote made reference to the original HSE leaflet which in its own footnote states that is is subject to Crown Copyright.

You are free to:

  • copy, publish, distribute and transmit the Information;
  • adapt the Information;
  • exploit the Information commercially and non-commercially for example, by combining it with other Information, or by including it in your own product or application.

That's from the 'Open Government Licence'.  The first page linked says "The ‘Health and Safety Law: what you need to know’ suite of posters are excluded from the Open Government Licence arrangements."

I also note "Some images, illustrations and other material contained in our print and multimedia products may not be owned by the Crown and cannot be reproduced without permission from the copyright owner."

However, none of that actually addresses the question asked, which was whether making up your own leaflet satisfies the H&S law.  That is, even if it is permitted to duplicate the content of the leaflet (i.e. it's not a licence breach to do so), that doesn't mean that doing so satisfies the H&S law requirements.  Being allowed to copy the content of the leaflet and use it for some other purpose doesn't make it OK to not distribute the leaflet as is.

I don't know what the asnwer to that question is, but I do wonder why you'd bother - it just seems to be making work for its own sake, and potentially sparking an argument with someone in future.  That is, you can eiterh distribute teh HSE's own leaflet, and be certain you've complied, or you coudl do a load of work, and have a load of arguments in future, and not be certain whether you've complied until you get to court.  I know which of those seems the prudent course of action to me.

Edited by user 10 January 2022 11:16:06(UTC)  | Reason: fix quoite formatting (I hope)

thanks 2 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 10/01/2022(UTC), philleahy on 10/01/2022(UTC)
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