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tbeagan  
#1 Posted : 14 January 2022 10:28:28(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
tbeagan

Good morning all.  I am looking for any assistance/guidance on plans/ideas for fire marshals when staff return on a hybrid working system please?  We have been looking for a system and struggling to find a solid solution?  We are planning for staff to return on a three day a week, days can alternate for all staff but to track who will be in on which days to cover each area is proving a bit of a task.  Pre Covid we had a radio system in place with 3 trained fire marshals in each area (84 in total for a capacity of around 2000) to ensure cover but to track who will be in on each day when staff return will be a task.  The 3 fire marshals liaise with each other to ensure cover and collect the radio at reception and that way we had a log of all covered areas.

Just wondering if you have any plans in place or can advise what you propose to do?  Have also seen a mention of evacuation coordinators/marshals who can just assist with evacuating areas?  If this is a thing what kind of training is required?  Do they need to do the full fire marshal course and what training is available?

Your input would be greatly appreciated!

Kate  
#2 Posted : 14 January 2022 10:38:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Your first question has come up quite a few times now with no compelling solution so it seems your struggle with this is a shared one.

But I'd like to comment on your second question.  I don't know what the function of fire marshals is other than to assist evacuation - that's how I've always seen their role.  The reason for giving them additional training about fire safety and fire extinguishers, as far as I'm concerned, is just to keep them safe while they are doing this in recognition of the pressure they may be under to stay in an unsafe area and the risks associated with their function such as being left behind in the building.

I'm aware that some organisations also give marshals the reponsibility of routine checks of fire precautions, but this is a completely separate activity from assisting the evacuation.  The only benefit of assigning it in this way (ignoring the real driver, the fact that other people thus get out of doing it) is that it maintains their familiarity with the fire precautions.  But by no means does it need to be the same people doing both.

PS Fire marshals are not firefighters.

Edited by user 14 January 2022 10:42:33(UTC)  | Reason: I had thought it went without saying but maybe it doesn't so I added a PS

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
tbeagan on 14/01/2022(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 14 January 2022 11:09:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The best solution to this ( and it is used  in a number of large organisations including Whitehall) is to train EVERYONE as a fire marshal/warden. By fire marshal/warden I am refering to the role described by Kate; not fire fighters or someone who monitors fire precautions; simply someone who makes sure that everyone is out of the building and that they stay out until it is safe to return.

You have a grab bag next to the exit containing a Hi-Viz jackets, suitable labelled plus maps plans etc a communications dev and a possibly a megaphone. First one there is it and becomes the fire marshal(s).    

tbeagan  
#4 Posted : 14 January 2022 11:41:28(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
tbeagan

Thank you both, really appreciate your responses. 

So do you think this could be covered on a return to office induction training say a fire section covering evacuation duties maybe 15-30 mins? I would say this is the only way to cover everyone as over 2000 employed at head office, so more of a evacuation marshal/coordinator role, is there such a thing, also would this cover us on our fire risk assessment?  Training for our current fire marshals is a four hour course also covers checks such as clear walkways, fire doors, any electrical overload reporting, comsustibles build up, peeps etc.

Thanks again

Kate  
#5 Posted : 14 January 2022 12:20:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The training I've previously done for fire marshals took somewhere between one and two hours.  It was entirely customised to their role and local arrangements.

It didn't include inspecting fire precautions or assessing PEEPs as these weren't part of their role - their role was what you are calling evacuation marshal or coordinator.  Given the arrangements you have in place in your organisation it may make sense to have a distinction between fire marshal and evacuation marshal, or possibly that will just cause confusion, I'm not sure which.

Off the top of my head and in no particular order the topics in it were:

Any worries they have about the role

What a (fire) marshal is and isn't expected to do

What to do step by step according to local procedures when the alarm sounds (including where to get the kit as described by AK)

What to do in a smoke-filled room

What to do if trapped by a fire

The types of fire extinguishers, the dangers of each, when and how to use them, when not to use them (walk round and show how to take the pin out etc, not an actual practice)

The escape routes and refuges in the area (walk round)

How to operate the evacuation lifts (practice)

Using the radios (practice to give familiarity)

How to assist someone in need including lost visitors and people with disabilities

What a PEEP is and the arrangements for formulating and communicating them

What happens at the assembly point and how to keep people safe there

What to expect and do when the fire brigade arrives

Edited by user 14 January 2022 12:21:40(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Sweeney25568  
#6 Posted : 14 January 2022 16:04:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Sweeney25568

Hi, I agree with A Kurdziel and training everyone to be a Fire Warden. That is what we have done with all our colleagues across 22 offices. I had the same challenge when we introduced hybrid working - you never know who is going to be in on what day. What I did was to revamp the Fire Warden e-learning training package to make it everyones responsibility to look after themselves and each other whilst in the office and to be very clear on their roles and responsibilities, i.e. sweep your immediate area (including toilets, breakout sreas etc) and get yourself out, no tackling fires unless confident and competent. Likewise we have a number of hi-viz, Fire Warden vests available, depending on the size of the office. We then describe that "someone", normally the most senior person in, acts as the designated person to liase with say Landlords/Building Management/would call the emergency services if needs be. We also operate a desk booking system and when you go to book a desk, you must confirm that you have completed the mandatory Fire Warden training before entering - not trained, your not coming in, although this does need monitoring. I took it from the reasonable and practicable view as the best way to address - it appears to be working. 

thanks 1 user thanked Sweeney25568 for this useful post.
Kate on 14/01/2022(UTC)
Messey  
#7 Posted : 15 January 2022 16:37:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messey

We have nearly 8,000 staff so training everyone was not an option. There were insufficient  resources to do so and the training, plus how can you achieve face to face training in a covid secure manner for 1000s of staff?  

So instead we have increased the number of Marshalls by between 100% and 200% depending on the risk in that premises. Our strategy is a best endevours approach where we believe 80% of the premises will be covered at all times.

In addition, we have issued revised evacuation procedures which talk about looking after each other and asking staff to check quiet areas (icluding loos) as they leave. This mimmicks the fire service's 'safe person approach' where they train the person to be safe rather than altering the environment (which of course they cant do). Our strategy is a mix of pre planned procedures and safe person concept 

Its not ideal, but we ran it past our enforcement authority and they are content as long as we do extra drills - three per year - where they will observe the first one in March.

Kate  
#8 Posted : 15 January 2022 17:43:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

It has of course always been near impossible to have 100% coverage outside of a continuous 24 hour shift work environment, as there will tend to be a small number of people around at the start and end of a working day as they drift in and out.  Equally an issue for first aid as for fire evacuation.

A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 17 January 2022 09:43:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

When I mentioned that EVERYONE is trained as fire marshal, I was not referring to some small bijoux employer but the Civil Service and in particular large offices on or near Whitehall.  Possibly they can find the time to do the training more easily than some employers and it is not perfect but can be done and it means they are more likely to have fire marshal coverage 24/7.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Kate on 17/01/2022(UTC)
melrogers  
#10 Posted : 17 January 2022 13:49:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
melrogers

We have gone down the option of a number of staff who are site essential, therefore don't have hybrid working as an option, therefore they are on site every day and cover the fire marshal functions. 

It is worth considering whether there is a group of staff who will always be on site every day and therefore you have a consistent coverage of fire marshals. 

thanks 2 users thanked melrogers for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 17/01/2022(UTC), Kate on 17/01/2022(UTC)
Messey  
#11 Posted : 17 January 2022 16:59:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messey

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

When I mentioned that EVERYONE is trained as fire marshal, I was not referring to some small bijoux employer but the Civil Service and in particular large offices on or near Whitehall.  Possibly they can find the time to do the training more easily than some employers and it is not perfect but can be done and it means they are more likely to have fire marshal coverage 24/7.


Yes, you would think economy of scale would make it easier, but with tight budgets, there is little scope for additional training in many departments. Plus with room capacities limited, you have to do twice as much training to get the same amount of staff trained as you would have before covid. 

And as for 'they can find more time'? I am not sure why the Civil Service would be seen to have so much slack time? Contrary to the media image, most of us are not partying and taking suitacses of wine into the office. We have less staff in the office, many are doing more work that business as ususal . So filling training courses is much harder than it was 

achrn  
#12 Posted : 18 January 2022 09:01:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

I have two difficulties with the 'train everyone' approach, and would appreciate feedback from those that think it works as to how you tackle these:

1: My experience of trying to convince a workforce that 'everyone is responsible' for something has generally shown that this gets interpreted as 'everyone else' is responsible.  This extends from trivial stuff (like wiping splashes or spills from the kitchen worktop) but seems also to apply to safety matters (e.g. propping open fire doors).  If 'everyone' is a fire warden how do you feel confident that 'someone' will step up when the need arises?

2: What do you do about areas with restricted access?  We have server rooms that we cannot allow everyone to have access to, and plant rooms that have 'no unauthorised access' signage.  Our fire warden training includes showing the fire wardens all that and authorising their access.  Authorising everyone to access all those areas wrecks the controls we have for that.  The training for giving the fire wardens familiarity with all those generally-off-limits parts of the premsises is the most time-consuming part of the training, in my experience (90% of our staff have never been in our roof space for example, probably 80% have never been in the basement store rooms, and I'd like to keep it that way).  Those places where everyone is supposedly a fire warden - do you allow everyone access to all your plant rooms, server rooms, etc?  Do you ensure everyone is aware of all the equivalent sort of spaces in your building (I admit to some scepticism that every person in a large London office block knows about every room and space in the building)?  If not, how do you sweep those areas?

Edited by user 18 January 2022 09:40:50(UTC)  | Reason: fix numerous apalling spelling errors

A Kurdziel  
#13 Posted : 18 January 2022 09:27:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

“Everyone is responsible'” is a great idea  but I can imagine some people  feeling that means everybody else is responsible but does not mean we can’t try to make it work otherwise we end with a small group of enthusiasts doing all of the heavy lifting. But that is not just H&S safety issue but something that relates to any activity :slopey shoulders pop up everywhere.

As to special areas: access to those areas should be restricted to authorised personal and the departments in charge of those people should have some sort of lone/isolated working policy anyway and they should be aware of location of their staff and the staff should be very well versed in evacuation procedures. Normally during an evacuation most people want to get out the sweep is more a matter of checking where people are, not rounding them.

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