Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Helen Waddington  
#1 Posted : 10 May 2022 09:22:05(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Helen Waddington

Hi all,

I'm a consultant and run my own consultancy, I help a range of businesses with their quality, environmental and H&S management systems, I also have a few 'H&S competent person' contracts in place. 

One of my H&S contracts is for a client who installs and maintains sprinkler systems in high rise buildings. They've won a tender for a slightly unusual job for them and have asked me for advice - it involves going into a empty water tank which will be classed as a confined space. I've visited the site, read the ACOP, discussed it at length with the client and the facility manager of the building and have drafted a risk assessment and method statement. 

Is there someone on this forum who is experienced in confined spaces and who would be prepared to review my documentation and discuss it with me? I'm essentially looking for someone to 'mark my homework' and make sure I've covered everything. I'm in Bristol, my client and the job are in London. I'm happy to Teams / Zoom or meet face to face (probably logistically more difficult). I'm also happy to buy lunch / dinner / voucher / pay for an hour's time. 

Thank you,

Helen

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 10 May 2022 10:10:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Helen

Faced with this scenario, personally I would not be using the Confined Spaces ACOP as my first point of refererence but rather the latest edition of the Water UK Occasional Guidance Note "Classification & Management of Confined Space Entries". (Free download from the internet)

Without seeing any pictures etc, my assumption is that this is essentially a miniature version of many an underground reservoir, except that it will be at the top of a building, or similar to one of the reducing number of water towers spread around the country (to provide intermediate storage when water pressure is insufficient to reach users at high elevations).

So, I guess that this entry would be akin to either NC1 or, depending on what is to be done + greater potential for water borne diseases in what is likely to have be stagnant water before the tank is emptied to enable entry, NC4 as classified in the Water UK guidance.

Some of those who might be competent to "check [your] homework" may be concerned about the implications for their PII.

Good luck, Peter

Pirellipete  
#3 Posted : 11 May 2022 13:34:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Pirellipete

Personally, I'd be considering working with an established CSE company and introducing them to your client as your 'specialist associate'

Then you can either add a small mark up, or discuss a commission with the CSE company, then you're covered from all angles and have the right advice from the right people.

Helen Waddington  
#4 Posted : 12 May 2022 04:43:26(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Helen Waddington

Hi Helen

Faced with this scenario, personally I would not be using the Confined Spaces ACOP as my first point of refererence but rather the latest edition of the Water UK Occasional Guidance Note "Classification & Management of Confined Space Entries". (Free download from the internet)

Without seeing any pictures etc, my assumption is that this is essentially a miniature version of many an underground reservoir, except that it will be at the top of a building, or similar to one of the reducing number of water towers spread around the country (to provide intermediate storage when water pressure is insufficient to reach users at high elevations).

So, I guess that this entry would be akin to either NC1 or, depending on what is to be done + greater potential for water borne diseases in what is likely to have be stagnant water before the tank is emptied to enable entry, NC4 as classified in the Water UK guidance.

Some of those who might be competent to "check [your] homework" may be concerned about the implications for their PII.

Good luck, Peter

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your message - I'll have a look at the Water UK guidance and see if it is relevant to this context.

The tank is actually in the basement, it is a storage tank for the sprinkler system so when the fire alarm goes off, the pump switches on to pump the water to the sprinkler heads (at least that it my understanding in layman's terms) The tank is full of potable water, not exposed to ranges of temperature and fully enclosed, it will be pumped out using the exisiting fire pump until a certain depth and then a sump pump and hoses used to empty it as far as possible. I hadn't initially considered water bourne diseases, however the facilities person at the building told us last time they emptied the tank there was a dead cat in it (?!) which is fairly horrifying! 

Thanks for the heads up about PII, I'll bear that in mind, obviously I've got my own PII and I will check that any person offering to help is competent to do so as far as I can. 

I've not used these forums for many years, so I appreciate your reply :-) 

Helen

Edited by user 12 May 2022 04:53:07(UTC)  | Reason: Trying to separate quote from my reply

Helen Waddington  
#5 Posted : 12 May 2022 04:52:27(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Helen Waddington

Originally Posted by: Pirellipete Go to Quoted Post

Personally, I'd be considering working with an established CSE company and introducing them to your client as your 'specialist associate'

Then you can either add a small mark up, or discuss a commission with the CSE company, then you're covered from all angles and have the right advice from the right people.

Hi,

Thank you for your message - I'm not familar with that TLA, what does CSE stand for? Confined Space Entry?

I did ask my client to consider turning down the job or sub-contracting it out, I've also strongly recommended that my client pays for contract competent supervision of the job as well as sending their team on a confined space training course beforehand. The service engineers are competent to fix the valve and to test the sprinkler system, it is just 'rather' inconvinient that the valve is at the bottom of a tank!

I'll be speaking to my client tomorrow to see where they are at with their decision making...

Thank you for your input - I appreciate it,

Helen

stevedm  
#6 Posted : 12 May 2022 07:42:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Having taught entry to the C&G standard and Management to the same...I now concentrate on the more dynamic aspect of emergency and medical response....but my point of adding something here is that it is fine knowing what the regulations are but the practical application of them in the real world is sometimes lacking from parctitioners and enforcement...with regards to the Confiend Space Entry (CSE) company (I think I have that right :))...sometimes they are not the best at compliance hence the reaching out in this instance for complaince support...so happy to mark anyones homework for free (pro bono) if it helps improve the practical application of legislation and get better compliance...

Users browsing this topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.